| ▲ | dreamcompiler 4 hours ago |
| Every new version of MacOS exhibits four phenomena: 1. Old bugs are not fixed. 2. New bugs are introduced, and I have to spend hours online figuring out workarounds. 3. Old features I depended on are removed, and I have to spend hours online figuring out how to replace them. 4. New features I don't need are added and they get in my way, and I have to spend hours online figuring out how to disable them. My workflow productivity takes a months-long hit every time Apple upgrades MacOS. As a result I rarely upgrade MacOS until it's around 3 years old and I have no choice. It appears that Tahoe is going to be the worst example of this in a long time. Which is why I'm moving as much of my daily workflow as possible to Linux. |
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| ▲ | eloisius 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I used Mac for 10 years and started feeling the same irritation around 2017. In 2020 I finally bit the bullet and switched to Linux. The initial investment into getting a usable Arch desktop was horrible. It took several days just to get to the point of something that I could boot into and be productive. It takes me a long time to get things working the way I want, but I kind of enjoy that aspect of total customization. The best part is, though, nothing ever changes. I get things working the way I want, and it just stays that way year after year. No UI language updates, no replacing my default shell, nothing. It just keeps working the way I like. Now if they could just produce a touchpad as good as a MacBook's, give me 8-10 hours of battery life, and make the construction feel slim and solid, and not like it's going to get crushed in my backpack, and I'd be satisfied. |
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| ▲ | sgt 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I fully get that macOS is not perfect, but checking out "modern" Linux (like a customized Arch) is a bit underwhelming. It still looks to me like Linux 20 years ago. And I started with Linux in the mid 90s. Not much has changed or improved on the pure fundamentals. I guess it's fine if all you do is sit doing CLI or spending your day in web browsers. Day to day macOS driving to me is an absolute joy (granted, I'm still on Sonoma). I do a lot of work in terminals but I also enjoy other apps, where that uniformity of Cocoa comes into play. And if you go deeper into Mach/Darwin, it's extremely powerful. On the userland .. from the launcher to dtrace and dynamic linker tricks and low level hooks. A lot of cool macOS APIs to experiment with, public or private. AppleScript/Automater, private frameworks like SkyLight (nifty!) Oh and don't get me started on MLX... To me, as a developer and as a power user, macOS delivers everything - and more. | | |
| ▲ | jsemrau a few seconds ago | parent | next [-] | | Depends on the role. I build AI Agents for a living and Linux is for this edge case better. | |
| ▲ | darknavi 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It still looks to me like Linux 20 years ago. I know this seems like a down side to you but the person you are replying to notes this as something they love about the platform. It not changing over time "just to change" is the point. |
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| ▲ | massysett 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The best part is, though, nothing ever changes. Wasn’t true when they switched to systemd, or when KDE 4 came out, or when the new Gnome came out, or when the kernel renamed Ethernet interfaces to enps-whatever. | | |
| ▲ | skydhash 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Those things are changes that are announced years before they happens and you would some distributions where they’re still using the old stuff. It’s not that unavoidable changes we you only have three years of holding on to the old stuff before being abandoned. |
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| ▲ | tjpnz 14 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The best part is, though, nothing ever changes. I get things working the way I want, and it just stays that way year after year. No UI language updates, no replacing my default shell, nothing. It just keeps working the way I like. While Arch might make you safer by virtue of choice, some of the more "beginner friendly" distros aren't immune to changing things seemingly overnight. Ubuntu for instance dropped GNOME for Unity which I still have bad memories of to this day. | |
| ▲ | Citizen_Lame an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Out of curiosity, what kind of work do you do on Linux. Because, some workflows are simply not possible on Linux due to missing applications. | | |
| ▲ | pelagicAustral an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I exclusively used macOS for about 8 years and now I'm on Bluefin, work generic web development stacks... The last bit of software I'm missing on Linux is the Serif apps... gaming (in my particular case) is sorted, I was shocked to install Steam on Blufin and have almost my entire library available. | |
| ▲ | iLemming 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Some workflows not possible on Windows. I avoid using Windows thus I don't care about the pain of having to depend on it - have zero interest in what's not possible somewhere else. What's your point? The only thing from macOS I truly miss when in Linux is JXA/Applescript automation engine. That's the only thing I miss. |
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| ▲ | giancarlostoro 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > 1. Old bugs are not fixed. If Apple would open source some of its OS apps, this would probably be a non-issue, I could see people putting in bugfix PRs the second Apple chooses to open source their core apps. I don't see them doing this any time soon sadly, but it would make macOS much more stable, and probably secure. The more I have thought about my views on Open Source vs Commercial software, I strongly feel that infrastructure code (an OS) should be more open source, I dont see Microsoft or Apple open sourcing any time soon, but it would make a world of a difference, imagine a world where Windows XP had been open sourced, and the community took it fully over and maintained its security, you'd have a drastically better version of Windows without all the fluff, or heck even Windows 7, which some argue was the last good version of Windows as well. I wish ReactOS was drastically more usable. |
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| ▲ | ethbr1 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Of the two, there's a lot clearer line to Apple open sourcing some of its core desktop apps, given market share (~16%?) and lack of internal resource prioritization (iOSiOSiOS). The best time to do so would have been ~2010, after iTunes revenue provided a clear monetizable carve-out. The second best time would be today. The number of people saying 'I love the hardware you sell me, but am switching platforms because your software is trash' should be a flare that even Tim Cook can notice. And anything that moves MacOS closer to OSS should be welcomed by Apple -- it's their easiest (and most affordable) path to competing with Microsoft (Azure) on desktop. | |
| ▲ | rcarmo 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Mail.app alone had enough issues and missing features to sustain an entire cottage industry, and would be one app I would certainly like to contribute to. But it shall never come to pass. | | |
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| ▲ | articsputnik 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| the same for me (e.g. yabai didn't work anylonger properly with latest update). But for the past 2 months (or so), I couldn't be happier with Omarchy. It's a Linux build that comes with all the Mac specifications out of the box and is set up as a tiling window manager, which is what I used on macOS. But no more bugs, and it just works. Plus I can tweak my own OS, if I need to change something. In case of interest, I wrote a little here: https://www.ssp.sh/blog/macbook-to-arch-linux-omarchy/ (It was also on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44955923) |
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| ▲ | IndySun 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Can you say a little more about the "fan always running"? Can it be attended to? | | |
| ▲ | articsputnik 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | As someone coming from mac, i didn't know about basic things. So one thing I found, don't put your none-mac on a desk mat, it's very bad for thermal throttling. So that helped a ton. I also found that when plugged in in powermode, the lenovo was always on high power, therefore fan on. By switching to balanced, that turned of as well. But also, as I stuck with Omarchy, I wanted a more beefier machine, as I work all day on the laptop. So with the new machine, Tuxedo latest version, I don't have any fans anymore too, just because it's much faster and better thermal. I will eventually write these up in a second part of the article. | |
| ▲ | pankaj28843 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was able to fix the fan always running issue by changing the fan mode for both my Asus laptop and old macbook pro; I am using silent mode or equivalent and that seems to be fine. there are policy files for throttle_thermal_policy/fan_boost_mode, and you can ise a systemd service to set to whatever is your preferred mode. |
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| ▲ | TomaszZielinski 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Re 1., based on [1] it seems that some data loss bugs are getting fixed. Asymptotically :) [1] https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/10/11/mail-data-loss-in-macos-1... |
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| ▲ | dreamcompiler 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I used to love Apple Mail but it was precisely this bug that made me move permanently to Thunderbird. It's hard for me to fathom a bug so severe that it caused data loss on an IMAP server, but Apple created said bug and put it into production. Thunderbird has the nice advantage of working on both MacOS and Linux with the same UI. It's not quite as nice as Apple Mail's classic UI (which is no longer available -- see (3) above) but it's good enough. | | |
| ▲ | isaachinman 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Also ran into serious issues with Apple Mail, and started building a new product: https://marcoapp.io | | |
| ▲ | AlexandrB an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I can't seem to select any text on your website so had to go screenshot, then select. But: > All your devices, synced > Mac, Windows, iOS, Android-stay in sync across all platforms. Does this mean email passes through a server like Spark[1]? [1] https://sparkmailapp.com | |
| ▲ | dreamcompiler 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Your screenshot looks nice. I hope you succeed with this, and I'd be happy to try it. From what little I know, building a fully-compliant IMAP client is hard work. |
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| ▲ | TomaszZielinski 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I can imagine that some race condition slips into production, but what's hard for me to process is why it’s 5 or 6 years later and it’s still not fully fixed. I mean, even if you have no idea what's the cause, you e.g. stuff counters everywhere and when they don't match you send the telemetry with the details. Privacy is preserved and over time you get an idea what to look for. I admit I have no idea how mail client works, but clearly there must be some way they could pinpoint it, with such large userbase.. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > but what's hard for me to process is why it’s 5 or 6 years later and it’s still not fully fixed Because Apple's (the company's, as a whole) bug -> triage -> engineering -> deployment process is fundamentally broken, and obviously has been for decades at this point. Say what you want about MS, but at least critical issues that actual customers are experiencing tend to get fixed. Apple seems to have some weird 'maybe someone will look at it, if they have time, after they get done implementing new features for the next release' process. (Glaring example: daisy chaining DisplayPort support) |
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| ▲ | s_dev 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When I was young I loved getting the latest of everything but that was partly because I didn't have to carry certain workflows or older tech along with me. It's the baggage that we accumulate is the problem. Now I understand why plenty of old timers just leave the OS version on the MacBook that it came with. All you ever really need is the security patches. Unless there is some specific new feature that you absolutely must need or some push factor, don't upgrade. |
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| ▲ | giancarlostoro 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | For me its every time I reinstalled my OS and didn't backup any of my chat convo logs. My wife still has them on all her old Macs, and her first Windows computer we met online through has some (not all) of our MSN convos still on it. I never thought about that unfortunately. |
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| ▲ | hulitu 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Every new version of MacOS exhibits four phenomena: This is specific to almost every new software. As jwz said "But that's what happens when there is no incentive for people to do the parts of programming that aren't fun. Fixing bugs isn't fun; going through the bug list isn't fun; but rewriting everything from scratch is fun (because "this time it will be done right", ha ha) and so that's what happens, over and over again. " |
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| ▲ | major505 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just curious, what yype of featureres where removed? To be honest Im new to macos, but after spending years suffering with gnome, that did removed a lot of features, Macos seens like it dosent suffer of this that much. |
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| ▲ | ransom1538 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nothing on this list compares to removing an ESC key. That was apple starting to leave reality. I had to buy used laptops for that time period. |
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| ▲ | AlexandrB 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Definitely the worst era of Mac laptop hardware that I lived through. I still have a work-provided 2019 MBP and the keyboard is shot (even though I never use it because it's docked to a monitor + keyboard 99.9% of the time), while the Touch Bar flickers with random white rectangles regularly while the machine is asleep. I personally kept using a 2015 MBP until last year for just this reason. | |
| ▲ | ubercore 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're right about the hubris, but Caps Lock -> Esc is The Way regardless! | | |
| ▲ | RayVR 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am a vim user. I map caps lock to super for a dead simple app shortcut system. I prefer being able to switch applications perfectly over a more convenient escape key. macOS app switching is broken by default. | | |
| ▲ | ubercore 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | AeroSpace WM really made a lot of sense for me for better application switching. |
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| ▲ | nik736 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wow I already forgot about the touch bar. And imagine being so stubborn to keep the touch bar but introduce a physical ESC key, they lost their minds during that time. | | |
| ▲ | codr7 an hour ago | parent [-] | | They lost their mind when Jobs died, he was the only mind worth mentioning in that cult. |
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| ▲ | theshrike79 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If they just put the fancy bar ON TOP of the f-row, we'd still have it. | |
| ▲ | icedchai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The early touch bar models were terrible. I still remember the day I traded that thing in for an M1. | |
| ▲ | KaiserPro 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As a Vim user, I thought it would be a deal breaker, but it really wasn't that bad. The rest of the laptop was though. | | |
| ▲ | nobleach an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | As a Vim user, and a 65% keyboard user with my ESC key mapped to `~`, I found out early on that using ESC in Vim is better relegated to CTRL+[ or `jk` (when in insert mode). Fortunately, that stupid touchbar didn't slow me down as much as others have mentioned. The volume control (that would get stuck) on the other hand... | |
| ▲ | AlexandrB 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In Vim, I've used ^[ instead of ESC since forever so the ESC thing didn't bother me either. Still, the Touch Bar is such a pain in the ass when I have to interact with it. It's also bad if I touch it by accident when carrying the laptop. |
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| ▲ | mmmnnn 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | super lolllz |
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| ▲ | coldtea 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 1) and 2) are common to all major software releases (whether it's an OS like macOS a DE like Gnome or some complicated program like Photoshop or Blender or something). Inevitable to a degree as you can't fix everything, and you can't ship 100s of thousands of new lines of code without some bugs. These are only a big problem if those bugs bugs are major, and/or widely applicable to different user setups, and/or very annoying. 3) is the worse though, especially when it happens for no good reason, or for novelty value. 4) is not that bad |
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| ▲ | devwastaken an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| If apple didnt win in hardware theyd be gone. |
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