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mgh95 18 hours ago

Perhaps most telling in this entire report is Table 1. It shows that the non-work has grown 8x in 1 year, whereas work has only ~3.4x. Considering that non-work related usage of ChatGPT now makes up 73% of the requests, ChatGPT is very much in the consumer market, despite substantial marketing of LLM products in a professional context and even as much as compelled usage in some corporations.

Since many consumers are typically relatively tight-fisted in the b2c market, I don't think this bodes well for the long-term economics of the market. This may explain the relatively recent pivot to attempt to "discover" uses.

I don't think this ends happily.

dolphinscorpion 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"I don't think this ends happily."

Still, 700 million users, and they can still add a lot of products within ChatGPT. Ads will also be slapped on answers.

If all fails, Sam will start wearing "Occupy Jupiter" t-shirts.

autoexec 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Ads will also be slapped on answers.

Ads won't be slapped onto answers, my guess is that they will be subtly and silently inserted into them so that you don't even notice. It won't always be what you see either as companies, political groups, and others who seek to influence you will pay to have specific words/phrases omitted from answers as well.

AI at this point is little more than a toy that outright lies occasionally yet we're already seeing AI hurting people's ability to think, be creative, use critical thinking skills, and research independently.

bayindirh 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The tech is already there to do so: https://research.google/blog/mechanism-design-for-large-lang...

gruez 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unlikely. That would be in direct contravention of FTC disclosure rules, which even google adheres to.

_aavaa_ 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Put the disclosure in the footnotes that comes with the link.

xphilter 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And how long will those rules exist? If people want these rules, they should be made into laws.

haijo2 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It would def get rejected in the EU.

MangoToupe 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm skeptical there's much value in this. Politics and ads are both loud and obnoxious for a reason. Subtle product placement and propaganda is not easy in text.

mgh95 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And friendster at one point had over 100m users. A gross margin (and more importantly, positive cash flow) business is more important than users. This data is not a good indicator of either.

og_kalu 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They have literally hundreds of millions of users that are completely free. Not google search or facebook free, but free free, and only suffer a few billion in losses. Inference is cheap and their unit economics is fine. There is literally no business that would be making profit under those constraints. If they need to make profit, they can implement ads and that will be that.

mgh95 17 hours ago | parent [-]

In 2024 (when customer mix was more favorable) they lost 5B on 10 in forward looking ARR.

They aren't pulling an Amazon snd balancing cash flow with costs. They're just incinerating money for a low value userbase. Even at FB arpu the economics are still very poor.

og_kalu 16 hours ago | parent [-]

>In 2024 (when customer mix was more favorable)

Okay, so still hundreds of millions of users

>They aren't pulling an Amazon snd balancing cash flow with costs.

Nobody said they were. I said having hundreds of millions of completely free users would suck the profitability of any business, and that the remedy would be simple, should the need for it arise.

>They're just incinerating money for a low value userbase.

If you don't see how implementing ads in a system designed for having natural conversations to users whose most common queries are for “Practical Guidance” and “Seeking Information” could be incredibly valuable then you have no foresight and I don't know what to tell you.

>Even at FB arpu the economics are still very poor.

No they aren't and I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Inference is cheap and has been for some time.

mgh95 16 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think you realize the issue. They aren't monetizing their SaaS product satisfactorily -- hence the Amazon cash flow imbalance statement. This indicates they must find new markets to survive. Despite this, however, they are gaining only in poorer markets, limiting the monetizability of a high cost product.

Implementing adds is a hail-mary. It puts them in a knife fight with google which will likely result in a race to the bottom which OpenAI cannot sustain and win.

FB global ARPU is about 50 USD. At 700M customers, they do 35B in revenue annually. This compares to a publicly stated expected cost of approximately 150B in computing alone over the next 5 years (see: https://fortune.com/2025/09/06/openai-spending-outlook-115-b...). This leaves a profit of 5B per year, with 90B expected r&d costs. Even if OpenAI develops a product and fires all employees, you are looking at a ROIC of about 18 years.

Fundamentally, OpenAI does not have the unit economics of a traditional SaaS. "Hundreds of millions of users" is hundreds of millions of people consuming expenses and not generating sufficient revenue to justify the line of business as a going concern. This, coupled with declining enterprise AI adoption (https://www.apolloacademy.com/ai-adoption-rate-trending-down...) paints an ugly picture.

ares623 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Facebook users spend multiple hours per day doomscrolling. Operational costs of a doomscrolling user is minimal. Most of it will be served from a CDN.

Imagine 700M users “doomchatting” with GPT5 for several hours per day to justify the ROI of advertising.

haijo2 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

V nice post. As a corporate finance and valuation enthusiast - I approve.

og_kalu 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Despite this, however, they are gaining only in poorer markets

They are gaining everywhere. Some more than others, but to say they are only gaining in poorer markets is blatantly untrue.

>FB global ARPU is about 50 USD. At 700M customers, they do 35B in revenue annually.

Yeah, and that would make them healthily profitable.

>This compares to a publicly stated expected cost of approximately 150B in computing alone over the next 5 years

Yes, because they expect to serve hundreds of millions to potentially billions more users. 'This leaves a profit of 5B per year' makes some very bizarre assumptions. You’re conflating a future-scale spending projection with today’s economics. That number is a forward-looking projection tied to massive scale - it doesn’t prove current users alone justify that spend, and they clearly don't. There is no reality where they are spending that much if their userbase stalls at today's numbers, so it's just a moot point and '5B per year' a made up number.

>Fundamentally, OpenAI does not have the unit economics of a traditional SaaS.

Again, Everything points to their unit economics being perfectly fine.

menaerus 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's one thing you're missing - inference is not cheap. HW is not cheap. Electricity is not cheap. This is w/o R&D. They show that, in average, they recorded ~2.627B requests/day. This is ~79B requests/month or ~948B requests/year. And this is only for the consumer ChatGPT data, Enterprise isn't included AFAICT. Each request translates to the direct cost that could be even roughly estimated.

og_kalu 4 hours ago | parent [-]

No inference is pretty cheap, and a lot of things point to that being true.

- Prices of API access of Open models from third-party providers who would have no motive to subsidize inference

- Google says their median query is about as expensive as a google search

Thing is, what you're saying would have been true a few years ago. This would have all been intractable. But llm inference costs have quite literally been slashed several orders of magnitude in the last couple of years.

menaerus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You would probably understand if you knew how LLMs are run in the first place but, as ignorant as you are (sorry), I have no interest in debating this with you anymore. I tried to give a tractable clue which you unfortunately chose to counter-argue with non-facts.

og_kalu 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Touting the requests per day is pretty meaningless without per query numbers, but sure, I'm the one that doesn't understand. What people with no incentive to subsidize are charging is about as fact as it comes but sure, lol.

I've replied to you once man. Feel free to disengage but let's not act like this has been some ongoing debate. No need to make up stories.

menaerus 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Which is why I said that it can be roughly estimated. And it can be roughly estimated even without those numbers assuming a fleet of some size X and assuming the number of hours this fleet is utilized per day, for the whole year. Either way, you will end up with a hefty number. Do the math and you'll see that inference is far from being cheap.

og_kalu 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Of course all the requests is a hefty number, they're serving nearly a billion weekly active users. What else would you expect ? Google search, Facebook - those would all be hefty numbers. The point is that inference is pretty cheap per user, so when they get around to implementing ads, they'll be profitable.

Again, there are many indicators that inference per user is cheap. Even the sheer fact that Open AI closed 2024 serving hundreds of millions of users and lost 'only' 5B is a pretty big clue that inference is not that expensive.

mgh95 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No, the economics are horrible. At current 30Y T-bond rates, your money doubles ever ~15 years. Your money grows faster in USD treasuries then OpenAI. That's disastrous.

og_kalu 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're moving the post now. Stop making up numbers and substituting them as fact. What you think Open AI's returns will be is your opinion, and not a reason to justify 'poor unit economics'.

simianwords 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you think the economics are horrible?

mangamadaiyan 5 hours ago | parent [-]

They've explained why. Now why do you think the economics are not horrible?

simianwords 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I have the same question as my sibling comment. Where did they get the numbers?

bix6 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But if they slap on ads their margin improves so it is possible no?

euLh7SM5HDFY 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, but only if the users can't move to competition. Just look at YouTube, there were relatively few ads until all other video sites were dead.

mgh95 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah but the problem then becomes you are in a knife fight with google. Welcome to margin compression on already thin margins and high capex. Its not a like they buy commodity hardware that is cheap, or have the depth of talent like Google to do ASICs + DC management.

Once OpenAI turns to ads, I think it's an indicator they are out of ideas.

babelfish 15 hours ago | parent [-]

You could have said this about Meta 15 years ago, and now they're a ~$2 trillion dollar company!

haijo2 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Meta (FB, IG, WA) and Google Search arent really comparable... OAI and Google def are though.

MangoToupe 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Google has a monopoly on search (maybe not as seen by courts, but certainly practically). OpenAI is in a commodity brawl with dozens of companies. Still, if anything saves their ass it's that "chatgpt" is synonymous with "chatbot".

standardUser 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No one ever paid for social media, or were expected to in the future.

mgh95 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Nobody expected the total computations from social media they expect from LLM services. And that's the point: users are irrelevant, even large enterprises with advantageous cost structures can die with poor management.

empiko 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

IMO adding ads is not going to be that easy. It is relatively easy to implement ads when the user is scrolling through tons of content and the ads are "organically" injected into the stream. But if the user is seeking a specific answer in a chat-like GUI, what will you do exactly? Whatever ad you will show will have to be visually distinguished and the user will just scroll past to get to the "true" answer they want. Sure, you will still get the product in front of some eyes, but I would expect this to be less effective than other social-media based ads.

justincormack 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Buying recommendations and taking a cut on purchases are more natural than ads, and they are already going this way.

morgoths_bane 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I suspect that if they are to ever implement ads I think they would be using existing methods and technologies. So in Duolingo if you finish a lesson you have an ad at the end, I can imagine after 5 prompts or whatever you get a full screen ad that you cannot skip out of. Also they may use other things like banner ads in addition to ads embedded in the scroll feed. They also may do something like what Meta did with having the option to share the AI slop with other users, and there is where I would suspect the ads to be placed as well. I do not think we will see if you ask ChatGPT to give you directions for the Heimlich that it will also tell you about a great deal at Del Taco. I do not think these corpos are going to let some clanker dictate what the ad is, they want full control on their message, so they're going to use techniques that are well understood and have metrics that can be well understood to their customers.

CuriouslyC 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

OAI has a very strong potential play in the consumer devices market. The question is if they approach it right. If OAI developed high end laptops/tablets with deep AI integration, with hardware designed around a very specific model architecture (hyper-sparse large MoE with cold expert marshalling/offloading via NVME), that would be incredibly compelling. Don't forget they've got Jony, it wouldn't just be a groundbreaking AI box, it'd be an aesthetic artifact and status symbol.

resfirestar 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The statistic is from ChatGPT consumer plans, so I don't think it says anything useful about enterprise adoption of LLM products or usage patterns in those enterprise contexts.

adeelk93 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Exactly. Enterprise use has a carveout for analytics - so it wouldn’t be in the paper’s population anyways

dzink 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Replace AI with electricity and the argument looks very different. I think the whole industry is going the Utility route over time. When electricity or railroads or shipping containers or other similar large infrastructure-cost systems were first released the value unlocked for the smallest most profitable customers expanded consumption far more than it did for the large users at the beginning. In electricity for example: Few could have predicted data centers, or crypto, or electric cars boosting demand at the start. As soon as something becomes cheaper with scale (which is what AI companies are going for) the consumption skyrockets as tech catches up. The utility down side is obviously guaranteed monopoly eventually and potentially government involvement, or in this case possibility of AI becoming a chunk of the government as well. Especially with social media content steering votes (text generation really being a tool to steer human opinions) and power, and public funding as a result.

dzink 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In case anyone doubts the growth and progress for scammers enabled by it: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/ai-chatb...

TriangleEdge 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think AI will also enable the discovery of psychopaths and narcissists, so the dystopia mentioned is uncertain. When AI will confidently boil down someone to some labels like this, we may get competent leadership for the first time ever.

macintux 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Openly being psychopaths & narcissists hasn't impeded today's autocrats. Apparently it's a positive indicator for many.

EagnaIonat 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the data might be skewed.

They only analyze the consumer plans, and ignored Enterprise, Teams and Education plans.

DenisM 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Consumers have low friction on the way in and on the way out. Especially when media hype gets involved.

Business have higher friction - legal, integrations, access control, internal knowledge leaks (a document can be restricted access but result may leak into a more open query). Not to mention the typical general inertia. This friction works both ways.

Think capacitive vs induction electric circuits.

ares623 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Consumers do have very very high friction with chatbots. As clearly demonstrated by the gpt5 update and the loss of gpt4.

lm28469 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Meanwhile I have 5 free accounts on each of the big platforms that I rotate whenever I hit a limit.

mgh95 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't see how friction is the primary driver here. ChatGPT is available through the most enterprise sales channel available -- Azure. The Microsoft enterprise sales engine is probably the best in the world.

Similarly, if costs double (or worse, increase to a point to be close to typical SaaS margins) and LLMs lose their shine I dont think there will be friction on the way out. People (especially executives) will offer up ChatGPT as a sacrifice.

andy99 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If people find it useful but enterprise adoption is lagging, doesn't that indicate there's still a big upside?

On the other hand, I remember when BlackBerry had enterprise locked down and got wiped out by consumer focused Apple.

In any event, having big consumer growth doesn't seem like a bad thing.

It will be bad if it starts a race to the bottom for ad driven offering though.

majormajor 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> If people find it useful but enterprise adoption is lagging, doesn't that indicate there's still a big upside?

It could indicate that many people find it more of an entertainment product than a tool, and those are often harder to monetize. You've got ads, and that's about it, and puts a probable cap on your monthly revenue per user that's less than most of the subscription prices these companies are trying to get (especially in non-USA countries).

(I find it way more of a tool and basically don't use it outside of work... but I see a LOT of AI pics and videos in discord and forums and such.)

ares623 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s been shoved down enterprise throats for months/years. Shareholders, CEOs, workers (at the start) and users (at the start) have never had such a unified understanding in what they want than this AI frenzy. All stars were aligned for it to gain more traction. And yet…

It’s the prodigal child of tech.

mgh95 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

When Apple sells a device, they get more revenue with minimal coats turbocharging revenue and profits.

When OpenAI sells a ChatGPT subscription, they incur large costs just to serve the product, shrinking margins.

Big difference in unit economics, hence the quantization push.

17 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
vonnik 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As google has shown, consumer/business market is not either/or.

ares623 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Looks like they only included actual chats and not agentic/copilot usage. IMO that makes the study quite incomplete.

mgh95 18 hours ago | parent [-]

The chats alone are backbreakingly costly relative to the market mix of ChatGPT.

Rest of the market be damned -- combined with the poor customer mix (low to middle income countries) this explains why there has been such a push by the big labs to attempt to quantize models and save costs. You effectively have highly paid engineers/scientists running computationally expensive models on some of the most expensive hardware on the market to serve instructions on how to do things to people in low income countries.

This doesn't sound good, even for ad-supported business models.

haijo2 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yep and lets not forget, those people are incredibly price sensitive.

Is there enough product differentiation between OAI and Gemini? Not that I can see. And even if it was a low price, thats not the point - people hate paying a penny for something they expect to be free.

By the time OAI has developed anything that enables them to acquire and exercise market power (profitably), they will have ran out of funding (at least on favourable terms). Which could cause key talent to leave to competitors and so on. Essentially a downward spiral to death.

ares623 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I also wonder how much of those "writing" assistance is for propaganda, troll farms, or scams. Such value. $500B well spent.

qwerty_clicks 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Work could Be dropping from the limit of ChatGPT in the workplace and use of CoPilot in a secured Microsoft tenant.

lispisok 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

OpenAI makes a profile of you based on your chat history and people are far more personal with these things than Google search. It's gonna be a goldmine when they decide to use that profile to make money.

standardUser 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

LLMs are the next ISPs, and those households who haven't yet found room for it on their monthly budgets soon will. And much like ISPs, i'd expect to see the starting $20/mo evolve over time into a full size utility bill. Not all households, of course, but at utility-scale nonetheless.

gdhkgdhkvff 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The difference is ISPs usually have monopoly/duopoly pricing power and LLMs already have freely available open source models. If one AI company decides they want to start gouging, they have to compete with other providers AND open source. And if all of the ai companies start colluding on price gouging, there’s always the option of new competitors cloud hosting open source models.

That said I do think eventually prices will increase somewhat, unless SOTA models start becoming profitable at current prices (my knowledge is at least 6 months old on this so maybe they have already become profitable?)