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delusional 2 days ago

> Who, exactly, is so strongly motivated to make such legislation?

For the part that Denmark is playing, I think the answer is somewhat readily found in the current national politics of Denmark. We've just had a pretty prominent politician 7 years ago get convicted of being in possession of CSAM. I think that's very personally offensive to our current prime minister. That has to be viewed along with her personal view of herself as the "children's prime minister", to make it into a double whammy.

We've also been dealing an inability of the police to investigate some crime, and the investigative committee established to figure out what to do about it recommended an ability for police to more readily be able to investigate digital material. I imagine the current policymakers imagine Chat Control to play a part of enabling that at a national level.

Quekid5 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> We've just had a pretty prominent politician 7 years ago get convicted of being in possession of CSAM.

I don't disagree with your overall thesis about Danish politics at the moment, but... I think it's interesting that politicians are exempt from these monitoring schemes. So it wouldn't have prevented that guy from doing what he did. IIRC, Law Enforcement is also exempt, and they never get up to any of that, no sirree...

ANY time any legislation comes with exemptions for the people in power (legislature and law enforcement) you know it's time for extreme skepticism.

EDIT: It's just the inanity of it that has me despairing. Lobbyism at its finest (see my other comment).

delusional 2 days ago | parent [-]

> IIRC, Law Enforcement is also exempt, and they never get up to any of that, no sirree...

The only place I have found anything about that is some random blog from NextCloud (and I don't know why I'd care what Katrin Goethals, Content Marketer for NextCloud has to say about politics but I digress) and the argument is flimsy at best.

cge 2 days ago | parent [-]

>(12a) In the light of the more limited risk of their use for the purpose of child sexual abuse and the need to preserve confidential information, including classified information, information covered by professional secrecy and trade secrets, electronic communications services that are not publicly available, such as those used for national security purposes, should be excluded from the scope of this Regulation. Accordingly, this Regulation should not apply to interpersonal communications services that are not available to the general public and the use of which is instead restricted to persons involved in the activities of a particular company, organisation, body or authority.

From document 11277/24 [1]. Unless it has changed more recently, the exemption is actually considerably broader, and presents the unusual argument that the system will be secure enough for any private personal communications, yet too insecure for any company's trade secrets (which, apparently, have the same weight as national security).

[1]: https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-11277-2024-...

delusional 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

OK, so the risk were worried about here is internal communications platforms, only available inside an organization like the EU or a company, being used for sharing CSAM? So officials sharing CSAM exclusively with other officials on the company chat server?

I don't believe that's what people think of when they hear "law enforcement is excluded". Officials will still be subject to the law when interacting with anybody else. They will still be subject when interacting on public services. Crucially, everybody will be excluded from private messaging servers, also non law enforcement.

Do we have any reason to believe CSAM is being distributed on the internal EU communication networks?

Hizonner 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Wow.

That's...

Wow.

phkamp 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Danish dude here.

We had a number of cases in Denmark over the recent years which pushes this agenda:

In addition to the obvious child abuse, there have been a case where video of a high-school girls private sexual activities where spread wildly on asocial media, fake-porn of various public figures and several cases of organized crime using various end-to-end encrypted services.

None of the Danish politicians I have communicated with like the ChatControl proposal very much, but there is nothing else on the table, which isn't much worse in terms of privacy invasion, so their only choice is ChatControl or doing nothing.

My personal opinion:

No human right is absolute, not even the right to life itself.

The demands of upholding the civilized society limit all human rights, and this limitation has always included intrusions of privacy in order to solve crimes.

I far prefer Dan Geer's proposal (See his black-hat keynote):

Companies on the Internet get to choose one of these two business models:

A) Common-carrier. Handles all content as opaque data, makes no decisions about what users see. No responsibility for the legality of the content. (= how telephone companies and postal carriers are regulated)

B) Information provider: 100% responsible for all content, no matter where they got it from. (= how newspapers are regulated)

The current "the algorithm did it" excuse for making illegal material go viral, to maximize profits, is incompatible with a civilized society.

I've asked the politicians whey they do not do that and the answers is "We do not want to piss off USA", in recent months that concern seems to be fading.

betaby 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> intrusions of privacy in order to solve crimes

ChatControl is about non-criminal activity.

delusional a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Danish dude here.

> phkamp

Hey! A lot of my views are heavily informed by your writings. I tend to agree a lot with your view of these things.

I personally extend it further by positing that the current democratic crisis, most readily seen in America, is caused by the inability of democracy to solve certain important problems, which I then again posit is at least partially caused by cyberlibertarian obstructionism. That's all just conjecture though.

It's nice to see you around here :)

wewewedxfgdf 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ah yes, "protecting the children". Meme driven politics.

delusional 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Meme driven politics.

It's very much NOT meme driven. We're generally very sensitive to child abuse in Denmark, and even singular cases are usually enough to establish pretty wide bureaucratic systems.

Originally, she launched the "branding" push when they were talking about schools and daycare, but like all branding it spills out into other avenues. I have no doubt she weighs her job around children particularly important.

It's not at all a stretch to me to say that she probably genuinely wanted her party colleague, and CSAM enjoyer, caught faster, and I don't doubt that she believes this is the best way to do that.

That's not a "meme". That's policy driven by observation and factual cases.

Aurornis 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> and even singular cases are usually enough to establish pretty wide bureaucratic systems.

This is what the parent commenter meant by “meme-driven”: When singular cases can be turned into an idea that is shared and occupies a disproportionate amount of attention because it gets packaged into a simple idea that is easily shared and repeated.

owisd 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

If a building collapses or a plane crashes that’s a singular case, but the ensuing investigation will be used to enact policy changes based on what went wrong to prevent it happening again. It only becomes ‘meme-driven’ when it deviates from what should be a mundane bureaucratic process, which can include blocking the process as much as putting fingers on the scales.

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delusional 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The parent commentor is the one making it "meme-driven". It is not a meme to advocate for protecting children from actual real life pedophiles.

Real life is not a meme.

cco 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

They're using the original definition of meme, not the more generally understood meaning for the word today, i.e. a joke.

Jensson 2 days ago | parent [-]

Meme is a thought virus, so yes "protect the children" is a meme. Politics in democracies is largely driven by such memes.

Llamamoe 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What is being advocated is not protecting children, it's the establishment of a mass surveillance state that's every single dictator's wet dream, without any understanding of how trivial it will be for criminals to coordinate and share CSAM in other ways.

If that's not a meme("bUt tHiNK oF THe cHilDRen!!11") I don't know what is.

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shaky-carrousel 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.