France keeps talking about the EPR2 program but the government just collapsed because they are underwater in debt and can't agree on any cuts or increases in taxation.

At this moment to go on a massive spending spree for a dead-end nuclear project is not a very sane policy.

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seec 2 days ago | parent [-]

Investing in the futur when you have a hard time creating more value than you consume is exactly what you need to do. Reducing investment is precisely the way to reinforce the downward feedback loop. If they want to keep taxing the common man, they need them to create more value otherwise to are just taking larger and larger share of vanishing small value.

France does have money; it's just all concentrated in the boomer generation who is fighting hard to keep control. A large share of the debt is generated to keep this gerontocracy confortable at the expense of the youth and future.

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ViewTrick1002 2 days ago | parent [-]

Which means you need a return on the investment for it to work. Creating self sustaining industries that don’t need subsidies.

Tossing an absolutely mindbogglingly large subsidy to the 70 year old nuclear industry which never has delivered competitive products is not a good use of money. It is like saying we create value by going around breaking windows and paying people to fix it.

France’s problem is that if they don’t fix the spending issue on their own the bond market will do it for them. Maintaining the debt will be a larger and larger portion of the budget until the only option is solving the issue.

Cutting spending will lower GDP and push up debt as a percent of GDP. But it wasn’t real income when the debt you took on did not lead to productive outcomes. Just polishing a pig.

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mpweiher 2 days ago | parent [-]

Er...nuclear is already self sustaining and has a great ROI for the French (and pretty much everyone else).

Even the most catastrophic nuclear construction project the French ever had, Flamanville 3, will have better ROI than intermittent renewable projects.

What doesn't make sense is throwing more good money after 25 years of subsidies at intermittent renewables that have yet to show a positive ROI.

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ViewTrick1002 a day ago | parent [-]

I’m not sure where to begin. Please stop straight up lying? Nothing in this comment is correct.

In France the battle is over how large the subsidies needs to be to even get started on the EPR2 program. Driven by EDF is too financially weak to take on more projects after the recent boondoggles and that new built nuclear power simply does not deliver electricity at a price the market accepts.

That does not sound very self sustaining.

Regarding Flamanville 3 you are likely citing the report with a discount rate lower than the inflation and a 40 year pay back time, while comparing to the first ever off shore wind farm in France. You know, a prototype as regards to working with French industry and bureaucracy.

For anyone even having a slight economic understanding the writers of that report are shouting from the rooftops that investing in nuclear power is pure lunacy. But shrouded in a language allowing lobbyists and blindingly biased people to cite it.

I also love how the fastest growing energy source in human history, for which subsidies are being phased out as we speak, haven’t shown a positive ROI.

What do I now. All that private money going into renewables are calculated in making a loss.

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mpweiher a day ago | parent [-]

My comment is exactly correct.

EDF gets subsidies from the state for their renewables projects.

EDF pays nuclear profits to the state. And to the rest of French industry via the ARENH program.

Facts.

That private money going into renewables is great at getting guaranteed state subsidies.

It's the best business model ever.

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natmaka a day ago | parent | next [-]

> It's the best business model ever

In France the Cour of Audit concluded that electricity produced by the EPR must be sold at 138€/MWh (2023 value) in order to obtain a tiny ROI (4%). This is a financial disaster. Proof page 29: https://www.ccomptes.fr/fr/publications/la-filiere-epr-une-d...

Renewables, on the other hand... While many reactors were down in France (intermittency, anyone?) they did cope: https://www.iea.org/reports/renewable-energy-market-update-j...

Renewables: a modest gain... 7 billions €! Source: official Commission in charge in France, page 4 https://www.cre.fr/fileadmin/Documents/Deliberations/2024/24...

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mpweiher 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Once again: EDF receives subsidies for their renewables projects.

	▲	natmaka 8 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I just sourced official reports, and for EDF I already answered (in French, sorry, if necessary a software translator does the job): https://sites.google.com/view/electricitedefrance/accueil#h....

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ViewTrick1002 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I love this. Just pretend that no new nuclear power needs to ever be built and it is economical based on the current economics of soon half a century old paid off plants.

Since the EPR2 program is in absolute shambles and the subsidy scheme hasn’t been finalized just pretend that it doesn’t exist!

They are only talking about CFDs, zero interest loans and credit guarantees! Those doesn’t cost money! Not until they start being paid out! Therefore does new built nuclear power does not need any subsidies. QED.

Or the French were talking about it. Until the government collapsed due to being underwater in debt with a spending problem they are unable to reign in.

We all know the one way to solve a spending problem is an unfathomably large handout to the dead-end nuclear industry!

Please. This is getting laughable. Facts be damned, just ignore reality and with a scalpel cherry pick a few disjointed facts.