| ▲ | kccqzy 4 days ago |
| The lure of H-1B is not really the money savings. Go look at the graduating class of computer science students at large universities. A large fraction are international students. Universities thrive on them since they pay the most tuition and are generally not allowed any financial aid. Companies want to hire them in addition to U.S. citizens. That's it. No Silicon Valley company that I know of pays H-1B and citizens different wages on that basis. The difficulty of switching jobs on H1-B has always been a myth. Voluntary job switches are just as easy as U.S. citizens. You just line up things well without the possibility of taking a long break in between jobs. Dealing with unexpected job terminations (fired or laid off) is the problem. |
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| ▲ | PhantomHour 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's not strictly about the money. (Though it is absolutely also about that) > Dealing with unexpected job terminations (fired or laid off) is the problem. Herein lies the problem. This gives employers absolutely massive leverage over the employees, which lets them coerce things like ridiculous unpaid overtime and downright abuse. Even if you pay the same nominal salary, the H-1B is "cheaper" if you can force them to work 60-80h whereas a top-class American is just going to demand 40h weeks. (Though in practice, those extra hours rarely see increased productivity, so whether it's actually cheaper for outputs obtained is up for debate.) Contrast: Europe. Tech salaries are low by US standards, but you don't see as much of the outsourcing & migrant worker hype around it. European labour laws mean you can't set up a sweatshop in your branch office, and European migrants to the US won't put up with labour abuses as much. |
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| ▲ | fakedang 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Contrast: Europe. Tech salaries are low by US standards, but you don't see as much of the outsourcing & migrant worker hype around it. European labour laws mean you can't set up a sweatshop in your branch office, and European migrants to the US won't put up with labour abuses as much. Europe actually has had more direct export of the jobs. No need of specialist visas when the jobs were already exported away to EE. The EU allowed for companies to arbitrage away tech jobs to relatively poorer countries in the EU. And there's very little need for native top talent as there's very little native innovation happening within the EU in software - it's only a fraction of the amount happening in the US. And that's why those who can often tend to work for American companies in the EU, or migrate if they can. |
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| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Voluntary job switches are just as easy as U.S. citizens. Then why did my wife's friends that lost their H-1B jobs have to leave America? American citizens don't face deportation with job loss. Also, as a US citizen, I'm free to quit my job anytime I want. If I don't like putting up with my job because of some bullshit my employer pulls, I can easily leave. That is absolutely not the case for sponsored workers. H-1B workers are stressed out and paranoid about their employment. They'll put up with far more, for far longer, with less compensation. |
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| ▲ | AdrianB1 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I work (in Europe) for an American company. All the people in IT we hire in USA are foreigners, they are cheaper. You cannot say it is discrimination on wages because everyone is paid low. The visa system allows the company to pay low wages and hiring foreigners is just a small detail in the scheme. Anecdotal statistic, in my department all the people in US and Canada hired in the past 10-15 years are from Africa or India. The only Americans or Canadians are the managers, they joined 20-30 years ago and slowly retiring, now being replaced mostly by Indians. It is happening the same in Western Europe, just with a different demographic. |
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| ▲ | nyolfen 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > No Silicon Valley company that I know of pays H-1B and citizens different wages on that basis. larger pool means lower wages. this is so fundamental and obvious that it feels like i'm being gaslit when i see shit like this. |
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| ▲ | mpyne 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Well it's because by this logic we should just stop Americans from studying for computing jobs as well, that way those who remain will have higher wages. Just as the Luddites tried to stop the rise of industrialization that threatened to bring the skills they used to employ to the wider public at lower costs. The real answer is that immigrants create enough economic demand to be net positive even for Americans, for much the same reason as Americans are generally more prosperous when there's more of us. Seriously, you live in some dumpy parts of the country and you can have the exclusive rights on being the town cloud guru locked down and in principle get higher wages in a smaller labor pool, but for some strange reason few of us want to do that. | | |
| ▲ | aleph_minus_one 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >
Well it's because by this logic we should just stop Americans from studying for computing jobs as well, that way those who remain will have higher wages. At least if these other Americans are from a different "tribe" than your own, this does not sound like a dumb strategy if people from your own "tribe" are deeply ingrained in programming jobs. :-D | |
| ▲ | nyolfen 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | tech wages have stagnated since ~2010 despite being one of approximately three productive growth industries. ever wonder why? > Well it's because by this logic we should just stop Americans from studying for computing jobs as well, that way those who remain will have higher wages. generally speaking, the point of 'having a country' is not 'offering opportunities to talented foreigners at the expense of citizens'. major employers routinely violate federal employment law in the pursuit of wage suppression; cursory googling will show you the biggest names you can think of losing lawsuits for hundreds of millions of dollars for their h1b pipelines, and yet they continually do this. | | |
| ▲ | mpyne 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > tech wages have stagnated since ~2010 despite being one of approximately three productive growth industries. ever wonder why? Not really, it's well explained by people realizing that wages are relatively high in tech relative to the labor required, which saw lots of college students pursuing computing degrees, the rise of coding bootcamps, and so on. The industry was growing, but so was the labor pool. You'd not expect wages to continue shooting up in that situation except for micro-segments where the demand for labor grew without labor supply going up (which is something you see in part of the AI field). > generally speaking, the point of 'having a country' is not 'offering opportunities to talented foreigners at the expense of citizens' Of course not, but the point of having a country is to improve the general welfare of the citizens of that country, and immigration contributes to that. It is good for Americans collectively to have easier (i.e. cheaper) access to good software, even if it is worse for the very small subset of the American population that provides it to allow for there to be more software developers. We saw the field of medicine self-limit admission in that labor pool out of fear that wages would drop, and it has been disastrous for Americans' healthcare even long after the AMA removed the rules acting to limit new medical graduates. We should earn our wages based on the actual value we provide to our fellow Americans, rather than based on artificial rent-seeking behavior. |
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| ▲ | SirChud 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | truffet 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | bubblethink 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | larger pool + larger pie due to the growth of the economy. You are viewing it as a zero sum game. What's better ? Two jobs with a pool of 3 people, or 2 million jobs with a pool of 2.3 million ? | |
| ▲ | dyauspitr 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The US needs immigrants. We need the best and the brightest. Those are the folks starting the new job creating companies. That’s what keeps us so innovative. The H1B is a good gauntlet through which we can get those immigrants. Ended it is shortsighted. | | |
| ▲ | DaSHacka 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The US needs immigrants. At the expense of the citizenry? | | |
| ▲ | abenga 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It is not a zero sum game (long term). Immigrants and their children have founded companies that have employed thousands of American citizens and created trillions of dollars of wealth. Stopping what has worked for your country because "…reasons…" is extremely shortsighted. | | |
| ▲ | AdrianB1 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It is an exception used to justify the rule. There is a very small percentage that founded companies and the rest are impacting negatively the economy. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway2037 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > the rest are impacting negatively the economy
Can you expand this line of thinking? Is this also true for other OECD members that aggressively pursue immigration as an economic growth strategy? | | |
| ▲ | AdrianB1 4 days ago | parent [-] | | If you import cheap labor, you hit your economy by lowering the wages in that sector. When you have immigration, there are a few very top talents and a lot of average people coming, the average ones are not a net benefit in most cases. In US migrants don't create huge problems of integration and culture clashes, in Western Europe there are problems with that so the overall impact is negative. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway2037 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If you import cheap labor
How do you define "cheap labor"? What is your max annual income?What happens if you import middle class and above labour? In the USA, I assume this is about 75 USD per year salary. |
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| ▲ | charcircuit 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | So foriegners should take potential investment money from American citizens because there business will have hired more American citizens than one founded by an American? I think it's more likely that they would prioritize figuring out to import non citizens, especially from the area of the world that they are from. | | |
| ▲ | abenga 4 days ago | parent [-] | | There is no "…more likely they would prioritize…". Those are nonsense hypotheticals. I am saying that the US today has many companies that were founded and built by immigrants and the children of immigrants in the past. These companies have employed millions of American citizens and created trillions of dollars of wealth for Americans. Speaking of these things as if they are zero sum games is silly and shortsighted. | | |
| ▲ | charcircuit 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >Those are nonsense hypotheticals. In group preferences at least in tech is not a hypothetical. I'm not denying that immigrants haven't employed millions of Americans, but that the investment for creating such companies is limited. If some product space is going to be a duopoly why not have the duopoly have American founders if possible? |
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| ▲ | insane_dreamer 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We have EB1, EB2, EB3 programs for the "best and the brightest". We don't need H1B for that. | |
| ▲ | truffet 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | willmadden 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Econ 101: increased supply lowers prices (wages). |
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| ▲ | zer00eyz 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Thats some Wealth of Nations every worker can move the same number of bricks reductive thinking. I have been in the valley for 25+ years, and worked with a ton of visa holders. The majority of them were better educated and all well compensated for the work they did. The fact that many of them stayed for green cards and citizenship says a LOT. There is a reason that the boss of both google, and MS came through these programs. | | |
| ▲ | remarkEon 4 days ago | parent [-] | | No it isn’t. There are two instances on this website where supply and demand seemingly do not apply. Wages in tech engineering, and housing costs. Specific carve outs are always made to make the conclusion that, for some reason, this positive supply (workers) and demand (housing) shock has no or marginal impact on wages and housing respectively. It’s very odd since most here work in roles where supply and demand of course apply so it’s not like people are unfamiliar with the math here. | | |
| ▲ | zer00eyz 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Show me the reduction in cost for medical care when 1/4 of the doctors in the US are foreign born medical grads, the bulk of whom came through the H1B program. Show me the American born doctors on the street going hungry while foreigners take their jobs. Show me the reduction in wages or costs. > supply and demand seemingly do not apply. Wages in tech engineering, and housing costs. Were drowing in data on both of these things and if you want to understand either of these markets from an economic standpoint then your going to need more than a surface level "supply and demand" argument when they look much more like "I, Pencil" levels of complexity. Im going to say this bluntly, every terrible engineer I have worked with, who has been fired for being bad at their job has been American born and raised. We're not importing dead wood and dummies to fill in roles as cogs on the h1b program. These are smart people who end up in high level roles who end up staying and becoming Americans (agin raising the bar). | | |
| ▲ | burch45 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This is such a weird example. Doctors are a professions with artificial limits specifically to raise the income of doctors in the profession. There are no starving doctors because they don’t let enough people become doctors to lower the wage. | |
| ▲ | remarkEon 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Show me the reduction in cost for medical care when 1/4 of the doctors in the US are foreign born medical grads, the bulk of whom came through the H1B program. If this is true it is a genuine national security emergency, not least because foreign standards for practicing medicine are not the same as they are here. I've never encountered a foreign born medical grad in all my years. Where do they work? >These are smart people who end up in high level roles who end up staying and becoming Americans (agin raising the bar). I didn't make any claim about the intelligence of H1b visa holders, though it's interesting that you immediately went on the defensive there. I'll say this: if you had a poor experience with American engineers that suggests there is a pipeline problem, no? Ostensibly, my government should be interested in fixing that problem since, allegedly, that's where its priorities lie. I totally get it that the H1b program allows companies to lower their demand signal to US-based institutions that would otherwise produce more of these people that you need. Sorry you worked with some shitty engineers, it happens. |
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| ▲ | BenFranklin100 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | A healthy labor pool increase business growth that in turn can push average industry wages higher however. It’s real phenomena too - US developer wages are so high in part due to the business ecosystem which depends on part on recent graduates and a flexible labor pool. That is, your analysis is only true in the static case. Starve US startups of talented junior developers and you might kill the next Facebook in the process. |
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| ▲ | dgfitz 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > Companies want to hire them in addition to U.S. citizens. That's it. As opposed to the rest of the graduating class that is already considered a legal citizen? Your logic doesn’t make sense. “In addition to every option available that doesn’t have additional legal framework attached, these specific people are also desirable.” Why? |
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| ▲ | kccqzy 4 days ago | parent [-] | | In addition to the U.S. citizens in that graduating class. Basically large tech companies want to hire whomever passes their interviews, regardless of whether they are citizens or not. The hiring process is intentionally blind on their immigration status. Small companies will ask you in the application form "will you now or in the future require sponsorship to work in the U.S." and larger companies simply don't ask. | | |
| ▲ | ajcp 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The hiring process is intentionally blind on their immigration status. You can't be serious. On every job application I've ever filled out the last question is always a variation of: "Do you now or will you in the future require employer sponsorship to work in this country?" | |
| ▲ | dgfitz 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The hiring process is intentionally blind on their immigration status. This might be the most amusing thing I’ve read all day. | | |
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