This is clean, until something goes catastrophically wrong.

(Which eventually it will. The more reactors, the more chances for it to happen.)

yellowapple 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Even accounting for the times things have gone “catastrophically wrong”, nuclear is many orders of magnitude safer per unit of energy than every other energy source except solar.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-from-energy-p...

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ryao 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Data reported by Forbes put the death rates for nuclear power in the US below all other sources of energy including solar:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-d...

The death rates are wildly different than the ones at the site you linked. I wonder what the reason is for the discrepancy.

	▲	everforward 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		The death rates might be a difference in units; the Forbes article is using deaths per trillion kWh, the other might be deaths per thousand/million kWh. The difference in ranking might be down to how they model deaths from nuclear power accidents. One may be using the linear no threshold model, and the other may be using something else. We don't have an agreed upon model for how likely someone is to die as a result of exposure to X amount of radiation, which causes wide gaps in death estimates. E.g. Chernobyl non-acute radiation death estimates range from 4,000 to 16,000, with some outliers claiming over 60,000. That's a wild swing depending on which model you use.

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LinXitoW 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

These are death rates with the current saturation of plants. If we wanted to cover all of Europe, a much more densely populated area, with nuclear, the deaths (and other negative consequences) would be far greater, no?

	▲	yellowapple a day ago \| parent [-]
		The thing about nuclear is that the land area consumed per unit of energy is, like the deaths per unit of energy, extremely low. You can “cover all of Europe” without needing to put very many people (if any) in the potential exclusion zone. Even with that being said, those safety numbers have held even with China building large numbers of reactors in relatively dense areas. I'd be surprised if European reactors turned out to pose much of a higher risk.

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epistasis 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, in deaths per unit energy. But the real risk of nuclear is financial. The tail risk is huge for any producer on their own, which makes insurance extremely expensive, and which means that usually only nations bear the full financial risk of nuclear.

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mgaunard 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Meanwhile lignite mines (which Germany are re-opening) actively affect the health of everyone nearby, even when everything goes perfectly alright.

	▲	pydry 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		The nuclear industry did say that this would happen but the reality was the exact opposite: >According to research institute Fraunhofer’s Energy Charts, the plant had a utilisation ratio of only 24% in 2024, half as much as ten years before, BR said. Also, the decommissioning of the nearby Isar 2 nuclear plant did not change the shrinking need for the coal plant, even though Bavaria’s government had repeatedly warned that implementing the nuclear phase-out as planned could make the use of more fossil power production capacity necessary. https://theprogressplaybook.com/2025/02/19/german-state-of-b...

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exabrial 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You are incorrect fortunately.

Western designs are safe, most Soviet-era ones are/were not. It's unfortunate that nuclear power still has this stigma, as it's like saying "all cars are unsafe" while comparing the crash test ratings of a modern sedan to a 1960's chevy bel aire.

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nilslindemann 3 days ago | parent [-]

Then why did Fukushima happen?

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happosai 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

That tsunami killed 20.000+ people, and spilled massive amounts of chemicals and toxic junk to the ocean.

Yet people keep fixating over the radioactive pollution, including evicting people from their homes for truly minor amounts of radiation.

Turns out the "worst case scenario" of nuclear accidents is jackpot for nature. By clearing Fukushima from humans, nature is thriving: https://www.sciencealert.com/animals-aren-t-just-surviving-i...

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everforward 3 days ago | parent [-]

To put a number on it, linear no threshold models predict ~130 deaths as a result of the radiation (and are known to over-estimate lethalities at low doses).

Around 50 people a year die while clearing snow in Japan, so it's ~ twice as dangerous as shoveling snow in worst-case predictions.

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pfdietz 3 days ago | parent [-]

LNT is not known to over-estimate lethalities at low doses. The actual situation is that the predicted deaths at low doses occur at such a low rate that the signal cannot be detected above the noise. That doesn't mean the prediction was wrong, just that it cannot be verified. It's possible (as in, consistent with evidence) that LNT under-predicts deaths at low doses.

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happosai 3 days ago | parent [-]

Even if LNT would under-predict it is still a rounding error in the big picture of the tsunami disaster.

And, let's put it straight: LNT is scaremongering fiction. People who live in Ramsay, Iran, are exposed to higher level of background radiation that n what is allowed for nuclear workers. Yet, there is no elevated levels of cancer or birth defects, not is there a shorter lifespan for people living there either.

The dose makes the poison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison

	▲	pfdietz 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		Epidemiology is a very blunt instrument. The data you mention there cannot be used to reach the conclusion you are trying to reach, since confounding effects cannot be excluded (and because the doses they receive can only be estimated, not actually measured). Yes, radiation biologists know all about those people and have judged that evidence as part of a larger picture.

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randoomed 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The main reason is a combination of negligence by the owner of the plant and not enough enforcement of standards. The fukushima powerplant was known to have sea wall lower then required and as such was vulnerable to a tsunami (this was known for quite a long time) Combined with backup power in the basement (also against standards)

For an example of what happens to a reactor build according to safety requirements see the onagawa nuclear powerplant

	▲	tyfon 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		It also had a design flaw that has not been present in most nuclear reactors since the late 70s. "Modern" designs have the ability to self cool in case of emergency by using an ice containment condenser or similar solutions.

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a3w 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Japan is very in the east, they said western designs. The reactor knows where it is, by knowing where it is not.

Just kidding.

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IAmBroom 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Old, bad design - from the 1960s, in fact.

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a3w 3 days ago | parent [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_III_reactor states that the 1960 reactors are most used, today. In the west. Contradicting that western reactors are safe, while eastern designs are not.

	▲	ryao 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		The Chernobyl plant had known construction defects that could impair safety. These things would prevent a western plant from starting operation, but did not stop the Soviet plant from beginning operation: https://inspectapedia.com/structure/Chernobyl_Nuclear_Disast... They did not even have any automated safeties in place, because their philosophy was “faith in the worker” while the western philosophy is “humans are fallible”: https://www.eit.edu.au/engineering-failures-chernobyl-disast... They then ignored their own safety procedures when operating the plant, which ultimately is what caused the disaster. Saying that Soviet designs being in the same generation as western designs makes them equally safe/unsafe is quite wrong when you look at the details. The Chernobyl nuclear power plant was one mistake after another. That said, the plant was designed by a country that shot down a civilian airliner that had strayed into their airspace due to a navigational error, when they knew it was a civilian airliner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 They had no regard for human life, so of course, they built things that are incredibly unsafe. There is no end of examples of them simply not caring about human life.

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sollewitt 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pebble-bed reactors are incapable of catastrophic failure, and molten-salt reactors have negative feedback loops with increasing pressure. Nuclear doesn't have to mean the same designs that were used in the 60s.

	▲	acidburnNSA 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		Both those design types were operational in the 1960s in the US but have been shut down due to lack of performance and industrial interest. New interest has started today, but let's not claim the new ones are some kind of new improved tech that evolved out of our workhorse water cooled/moderated plants.

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ainiriand 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What is a bit scary is that we cannot easily deal with the consequence of something really wrong... We have to real with it.

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pelagicAustral 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'd say a reactor in inland Europe is far from the craziest place to put one. God forbid someone were to put one in the Pacific ring of fire... oh, wait...

	▲	IAmBroom 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		Why? Are you concerned that, like Lex Luthor in that worst-of-all Superman movies, someone will use nuclear reactors to somehow cause damage to continental plates? Actually, that's more of a stretch than the movie took.