>The point of these problems is to test your cleverness.

No it's just memorization of 12 or so specific patterns. The stakes are too high that virtually everyone going in will not be staking passing on their own inherent problem solving ability. LeetCode has been so thoroughly gamified that it has lost all utility of differentiability beyond willingness to prepare.

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erikerikson 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Given this consider that LeetCode solving is rarely ever part of your work. So then, what are they selecting for with the habit?

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cratermoon 5 days ago | parent [-]

Selecting for people like themselves.

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erikerikson 5 days ago | parent [-]

I think this is one of the more true answers but can you be more specific?

Like in race? Like in wealth? Like in defection willingness? Like in corruption?

Asking for a friend who is regularly identified as among the most skilled but feels their career has been significantly derailed by this social phenomenon.

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bluGill 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

People decide what is like. I know some people who would never work with some group, but they have no problem with some other group.

In this case the group is people good at leetcode - the people I know of in that group are perfectly fine with any race so long as they can solve leetcode. There are people who care about race, but I've never had much to do with them so I can't guess how they think.

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vkou 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Like in 'can solve a leetcode question quickly', because that's what the interview rubric asks them to test for.

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erikerikson 5 days ago | parent [-]

That is the acceptable public answer of course but it is a mind stopper. Obviously the definition comes from some person with some set of motivations and this seems to ignore that real and pertinent question.

	▲	cratermoon 5 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Things like age, class, education and educational institution, willingness to work long hours doing something you hate for a goal you don't care about except that it feeds and houses you.
	▲	vkou 5 days ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Line engineers running interviews have stopped having any say in the corporate policies of tech firms years ago. They are cogs, not rockstars. You are right, this definition does come from some person with some set of motivations, but that person is some mid/high-level manager who probably hasn't ever written a line of code in their life.
	▲	Apocryphon 5 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		It's just tradition for the sake of tradition. When cargo cult practice becomes industry culture. Like a much milder version of why medical residents are put through extreme sleepless wringers just because William Halsted was a cocaine addict.

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5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[deleted]

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bee_rider 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, it tests if the candidate enjoys the programming-adjacent puzzle game of LeetCode, which is a perfectly decent game to play, but it is just a signal.

If somebody grinds LeetCode while hating it, it signals they are really desperate for a job and willing to jump through hoops for you.

If somebody actually enjoys this kind of stuff, that is probably a signal that they are a rare premium nerd and you should hire them. But the probably play Project Euler as well (is that still up?).

If somebody figures out a one-trick to minmax their LeetCode score… I dunno, I guess it means they are aware of the game and want to solve it efficiently. That seems clever to me…

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jkubicek 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In defense of questions like this, “willingness to prepare” is a significant differentiator

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erikerikson 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

But what is it differentiating? And is it really the best evidence of willingness to prepare? My MSc and BA on the topics, my open source contributions, two decades of industry experience... Those aren't evidence of not only willingness but execution of preparation?

	▲	JonChesterfield 4 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		The papers and open source indicate that you can build stuff. That's not what it's testing for. Will you put up with very long hours of insane grindy nonsense in the spirit of being a team player for a team that doesn't really remember what game they're playing? Are you sufficiently in need of income to be fighting through this interview dance in preference to other things, such that once you join you'll be desperate to stay? Those are extremely important questions, and a willingness to have spent a thousand hours memorising leetcode correlates strongly with the attributes sought.
	▲	lubujackson 5 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		It is a differentiator when you are hiring straight from college. The fact we use this beyond entry level roles is a sign the company has lost the thread and is cargo culting.

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tjpnz 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That willingness to prepare doesn't reconcile with the realities of parenthood and all of the other responsibilities someone in their thirties may have. Consistently finding that time will be a huge ask, especially if you haven't worked on those problems in a while.

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LordDragonfang 5 days ago | parent [-]

I mean, it would be illegal for them to state it outright, but most companies would prefer not to hire people with kids and other responsibilities. That's the whole reason there are specific discrimination laws for that.

	▲	cratermoon 5 days ago \| parent [-]
		LeetCode questions neatly solve the problem of not wanting to hire people who won't, or can't, spend hours of their free time doing things they hate for a goal they don't care about except to the extent that will feed and house them.

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bluGill 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That they would ask me to prepare for that is a signal as well.

In no case is it a useful signal on if I can do my job better than someone else. Some people like this type of problem and are good at it anyway which is a good signal compared to average - but there are also above average people who don't enjoy this type of problem and so don't practice it. Note that both cases the people I'm talking about did not memorize the problem and solution.

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avgDev 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It also means "I don't have money for food, and at this point I am desperate".