> It's not a deal. They don't understand what's happening.

So what? Mutualism happens all the time in nature, even if neither party is consciously aware of it. The relationship between humans and bees is very similar to the relationship between coral polyps and algae; the algae make sugars for the polyps, and polyps provide protection for the algae.

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yesfitz 5 days ago | parent [-]

I take issue with the framing of the industrial-scale farming of introduced species that outcompete native pollinators as a pact between equals. That the bees choose anything.

In your comparison, neither the algae nor the polyps have the capacity to reason about or alter their arrangement.

In a fair deal, both parties must be able to reason about and/or withdraw from the arrangement.

If only one party is able to reason about and withdraw from an arrangement, the other party is being used.

In this case, bees are tools being used. I'm not willing to say that it's a great moral evil for that reason, but bees not only don't have the capacity to understand the arrangement, they will die trying to kill to defend their honey.

So my only appeal in this case is not to pretend that they choose.

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chongli 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

If only one party is able to reason about and withdraw from an arrangement, the other party is being used.

This is our relationship with all other life on earth. We use plants, fungi, bacteria, and animals to survive. We've invaded every continent on the planet (including Antarctica) and like some kind of mega-beavers we've radically reshaped environments to suit ourselves, destroying habitats for some and creating new ones for others (squirrels and many species of birds seem to thrive like crazy where I live in the city, with few predators to endanger them).

What survives and what doesn't survive is largely our choice. No other animal on the planet has this capacity for choice. Whether we favour one species over another or vice versa, it's our choice in either case. Many people do try to frame this as a moral choice but neglect the human side of it. Making real change to help wildlife requires scaling back human society, reducing food production, reducing housing and other infrastructure.

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vintermann 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, it's not exactly their honey, because they have no notion of property or propriety. They'll just as soon die trying to kill to take your sugary snack.

If they don't have the capacity for considering themselves wronged, and won't get it, can you really wrong them? Are there really even two parties here?

Now it may still be wrong for other reasons to keep bees, like destroying nature by wiping out native pollinators etc.

	▲	watwut 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		I dont think keeping bees is morally wrong. I eat meat too and some animal had to die for that. But I do think that comment up thread trying to frame it as some service to them or "sweet deal" is ridiculous. It reminds me when management/politicians make chances strictly for own benefit and puts out manipulative memo trying to make the situation sound as anything but that. It is ok to use bees for honey. We dont do it for bees and they are not getting all that much value from that.