| ▲ | mothballed 5 days ago |
| Is it possible that violence is just more rational for today's 18-34 y/o than it was at some other points in recent history? |
|
| ▲ | Lerc 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| The argument against using violence to achieve you ends is that if everyone does it, it is bad for everyone. If those who do it do not face repercussions then they will gain undue advantage, motivating everyone to match their actions, which again, is bad for everyone. The solution is the social contract and the rule of law. If enough people agree that anyone taking that path should face repercussions sufficient to not grant a net advantage, then enforcement of the law prevents others from taking the path of violence to reach parity with the violent When the rule of law is eroded, which it has been, in the US and worldwide. Then it does indeed become more rational to use violence to restore the rule of law. Unfortunately it also increases the motivation towards violence for personal gain, that makes the task of restoring the rule of law all that more difficult. Countries have spent years trying to recover that stability once it is lost. |
| |
| ▲ | tossandthrow 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Rule of law in itself is not a worthwhile institution - and is not enough to keep violence at distance. You need protection, non corruption and a level of equality to be protected by that rule of law. I think that is what mostly has been eroded - also the poorest 10% need a reason to believe in rule of law. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Rule of law is necessary but not sufficient. The others don't matter if it's lacking, because social contracts without contracts meaning anything are worthless. | |
| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | noduerme 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You make a good point. For example, the rule of law in North Korea or Equatorial Guinea is whatever the HMFIC says it is. And that's written in law, the police and courts enforce it, all proper and aboveboard in a legalistic sense. Just not in common sense. As far as the poorest 10%, though: There is always a poorest 10%. And a poorest 50%. If you're in the middle class or higher, you have every reason to prevent the poor from revolting and taking what you have. This can be accomplished by a vast array of carrots and sticks. Some countries lean more toward the carrot - we call them liberal democracies. Autocratic states use the stick. But although greater wealth inequality may be a good indicator of the tendency of the lowest 10% to become lawless, it is not a good indicator of which method is used to keep them in check. Cuba has pretty amazingly low levels of wealth inequality - essentially everyone's poor. Keeping them from rebelling, however, is all stick, precisely because any kind of economic carrot would undermine the philosophy that it's better for everyone to be poor than to have wealth inequality. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Very good points. For the most part, the bottom 10% in most liberal democracies are much better off than most people in most autocratic states. Wealth inequality isn't great but the existence of wealthy people in successful countries helps fund service for the entire population. Yet I saw a poster the other day titled "class warfare" with a picture of graveyard saying that's where the "rich" will be buried. People don't understand at all how counties and economies work and how this system we live in works vs. the alternatives (I'm in Canada btw). | | |
| ▲ | TFYS 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Wealth inequality isn't great but the existence of wealthy people in successful countries helps fund service for the entire population. I think it does the opposite. Those services were mostly built during the last century after the war when conditions were just right for people to get those policies implemented. Since then the wealthy have mostly been lobbying against those services, dodging taxes, spreading propaganda justifying the inequality, etc. Now we're seeing the results of this work by the wealthy. I also think it's wrong to assume the wealthy are the creators of that wealth just because they have it. It can also be the result of using positions of power to get a larger share of a pie baked by a lot of people. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 5 days ago | parent [-] | | This is factually not true. For example: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111000... The top 1% of highest income in Canada pays 21-22% of the taxes. Their share of the income is about 10%. So they "rich" are paying for services everyone else is getting. The top 10% pay 54% (!) of the taxes. Their share of income is about 34%. The top 0.1% pays about 8-9% of the taxes. So in Canada the rich are absolutely paying for the services everyone else gets. That's before accounting for their indirect contributions to the economy by running businesses, employing people, taxes paid by companies, etc. Maybe some random billionaire has some scheme that reduces their taxes. But most of the the rich pay way more taxes than others. | | |
| ▲ | TFYS 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I wouldn't call people working for a salary rich, which most of the people in those groups are. They pay plenty of taxes and many of them probably support funding public services as well. I meant the actually wealthy, who use their political power to reduce those services and the taxes they need to pay. They don't help fund them unless they are forced to, and currently they are not because the political power of their wealth has become larger than the political power of regular people. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Most people in the top 0.1% are quite rich. There are quite a few CEOs and founders of large companies that are billionaires from income they got from those companies (and paid taxes on). Maybe you need to give me more examples. Who are "actually wealthy" people in Canada who do not pay any taxes whatsoever and contribute nothing to the local economy/country? e.g. they avoid paying GST or HST, they avoid paying property taxes, they don't pay capital gains taxes? I do agree that some rich people (and also not rich people) campaign for a smaller government and less taxes. I don't think that's an unreasonable position. There is a sweet spot for taxation and taxes in Canada are quite high. It's not a zero sum game (e.g. we have people leaving Canada to go to lower tax countries like the US). | | |
| ▲ | tossandthrow 5 days ago | parent [-] | | There are many books on this, you can start by picking up eg. Marianna mazucato and rutger bregmann to get some contemporary views. In unequal societies governance is controlled by less people and they tend to divert money into activities that increase their wealth instead of benefitting everyone - this has in particular happened in the west over the past 40 years. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Show me the data. Everything I see around me, in data and anecdotally, tells me that in my unequal society (Canada) everyone is doing better and governance is not controlled by rich people. The current government that won the elections would not be the preferred government of the ultra rich who want to make a little more money on the backs of everything else (which honestly is not a thing as far I can tell). Marianna Mazucato's writings look interesting but I'd have to dig in more. Rutger Bregman seems like much less of an expert in the domain and I'm not sure his ideas vibe with me but might take a look. | | |
| ▲ | TFYS 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Thomas Piketty has collected that data. He showed that the rate of return for capital is larger than the rate of growth, meaning capital owners are getting an ever increasing share of the economic output. Income inequality doesn't really account for this, look into wealth inequality. The wealthy are also good at hiding their wealth to avoid taxation and publicity, I'm not sure how much the studies consider that. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That is the wrong question to ask and. "The wealthy are hiding their wealth" sounds like a conspiracy theory. I think we have pretty good visibility into the really wealthy (e.g. we know pretty well who is on the short list of billionaires in Canada and more or less what they own). Banks report any movement of money >$10k, real estate is tracked, company ownership is tracked. That there is some large number of really wealthy people hiding in plain sight doesn't compute. We can't disprove the idea that some person living on the streets in East Vancouver is actually a billionaire hiding their wealth but even if so that percentage of those people in the total population isn't going to move the needle vs. all the known rich people who can't really "hide". If there are ways to legally not pay taxes then we'd hear about them and use them. Billionaires do have some options most of us can't pursue but I think the idea that the rich hide their wealth and don't pay taxes is mostly a myth. Prove me wrong... Here's some data to try and support my claim: https://www.statista.com/statistics/467384/percentage-of-pop... The % of the population in low income families has been declining. Here's a broader time horizon: https://www.statista.com/statistics/467276/number-of-persons... We'd need to plot that against income/wealth inequality but I expect that has increased over this period. This isn't consistent across Canada, for example in Alberta:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/583120/low-income-popula... There's virtually no movement since 1976 (the percentage is somewhat lower today). I'm assuming the threshold for low income represents some more or less equal standard of living. We can look at some other metrics like life expectancy: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/can/can... This has consistently improved since the 1950's which doesn't seem to support the theory that the broad population is doing worse. If you think you have a better metric that shows that most people are worse off due to the increasing wealth/income gap then let's see it. Random by the way is that I just saw an article today about the wealth distribution in Canada and the data point there was that the top percentiles wealth has declined since 2019. Obviously the top 0.1%/1%/10% still own a lot of the total wealth (I think the figure was something like 56% of the wealth in the top 10%) but that's what you'd expect in a free capitalist system. ( I think the article was related to this report: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/13-605-x/2025001/article... ) Another random by the way observation is that I think the ability of some random person to get ahead is probably unprecedented. Never has knowledge been so accessible (Internet) and various means of production be so accessible and cheap (content creators, apps, prototyping equipment, etc.). |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | bluecheese452 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So their after tax income is far higher than their share of the population? Give me 50% of a country’s income and I will be more than happy to pay 60% of the tax. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Why should they pay for more than they get? Not fair. Start a successful business, take some chances, and maybe you'll pay more tax. Heck- many software engineers are likely in the top 10% in Canada. | |
| ▲ | naijaboiler 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Heck I will gladly pay 90% |
| |
| ▲ | Jepacor 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The percentages really don't tell you that much. To illustrate with an extreme exemple, if the top 0.1% earns a million, and the government taxes a single dollar on them and nothing on anyone else, the top 0.1% would pay 100% of the taxes. But it obviously would not be enough to help people in need. I don't know the particular situation for Canada, but I know that welfare benefits are getting worse in my country (France) | |
| ▲ | ratelimitsteve 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | when you calculate their share of wealth you only include income. when you calculate their share of taxes do you only include income tax? | |
| ▲ | tossandthrow 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Try for just one minute and don't think about this in terms of money, and you will see why your argument is completely failing. It is clear that one rich person who leisurely spend their morning getting ready for a business meeting does not provide any care to any elderly. Your comment is clear example of the type of misinformation that got us here. In the end money is an institution. You can only get things done, I if someone are willing to take money for work. And that only works when there is a certain level og equality. |
|
| |
| ▲ | skinnymuch 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Interesting how this is always about how liberal democracy (namely European supremacist nations like yours) who control the world as the global north and are the primary reasons for the “autocracy” I don’t know where you can even think the bottom 10% of the west/liberal democracies are better than “most” in those other countries. That’s a wild thing to think. Seems like typical western centrism and chauvinism. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Let's look at one example. The average income in Egypt is ~$1900 USD a year (it's probably worse now but this is a number I've seen). Low income threshold in Canada is about $20k (EDIT: CAD) a year and that's about the bottom 10%. So not sure what your point is re: wild thing to think. Do you think the average Egyptian is better off than the low 10% Canadian? How is it that because liberal democracies "control the world" that Egypt is forced to be an autocracy? Do they have no agency? If Liberal democracies so control the world how come some countries have been able to do better (China e.g.) | | |
| ▲ | noduerme 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >> How is it that because liberal democracies "control the world" that Egypt is forced to be an autocracy? Do they have no agency? This is exactly how I would have responded to the above comment. I'd just add that there is tons of evidence for liberal democracies attempting to help or entice those countries to become less corrupt, more transparent and more democratic. Saying that countries that have been independent of colonial rule for a hundred years, which incidentally were mostly handed democratic systems, have become autocracies because of liberal democracies want them that way is sheer insanity. Your point about agency should be the standard rebuttal to all forms of third-worldism that attempt to blame homegrown problems on external actors. But having someone external to blame for homegrown repression isn't just post-hoc rationalization. It actually serves to reinforce the oppression in those states, both as a pressure-release valve for autocrats, and the failure to evaluate internal problems serves as an underlying reason why they have not successfully overthrown those regimes and transitioned to democracy. Mostly, though, that type of talk comes out of the mouths of Westerners who know nothing about the situation in, e.g. Egypt. |
|
| |
| ▲ | tossandthrow 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | As sibling commentors say, this is just not true. As a society we have a capacity to work, and we divide that work using money. Your observation thst rich people pay for services is indicative of an oligarchy. When rich people pay, then it is not a plethora or small businesses, a democratic chooses government, or a consortium of investors bundling together to do something great. You are literally pointing out the failure of the west. | | |
| ▲ | YZF 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't think so. This is the success of the west. It's the least worse of all the other alternatives. Which other option has worked out better for everyone? Oligarchy would be the rich controlling the countries in the west. Other than in people's imagination and conspiracies there is no evidence of that actually happening. Was Trump the favorite candidate of the rich in the US? I very much doubt it. Do the rich gain more influence with their money - sure. But not more influence then the rest of the population. The 99.9% have more influence than the 0.1% in aggregate. The west is the only place on this planet where the corrupt rich do not have absolute control (see Putin). Is it perfect, no? Is it better than those failed attempts to make everyone equal, strong yes. The top 0.1%, 1%, 10% are still a lot of people. This includes many successful small businesses, it includes large businesses, it includes many. Those people have varied opinions on how countries should be run, just like all of us. But they also have a vested interest in having a safe and free and well functioning society. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | efreak 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Relevant: > Hate begets hate; violence begets violence[...]Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate[...]but to win[...]friendship and understanding. > The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence[...] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_begets_violence#Words.... | |
| ▲ | Aeolun 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is, however, frequently the way by which countries reset themselves. | |
| ▲ | von_lohengramm 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The argument against using violence to achieve you ends is that if everyone does it, it is bad for everyone. If you subscribe to Kant perhaps, but most people's argument against violence (and morality in general) is probably not Kantian. | | |
| ▲ | Lerc 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Well if surveys are to believed the predominant view in the US is that morality is dictated by God. I'm skeptical, but also, I have met people like that. I think the argument for not committing violence when you are able to do so without any form of repercussion comes down to a morality issue, you don't do it because it is wrong. That works at an individual level, At a societal level you cannot assume all people to be moral. When faced with the inevitability of not all people being moral (or not agree on the same set of morals) you need a secondary reason to prevent violence. I suspect quite a lot of people would accept the morality of violence to prevent more violence. That is where individual morality might weigh in on the aspect of whether violence is appropriate to establish or protect the rule of law. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | molsongolden 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They also might be least aware of the consequences as they've grown up during the least violent time in US and human history. |
| |
| ▲ | alickz 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I think a lot of them have a very romantic view about revolutions and their place in them Revolutions harm the poor and the disabled far more than they harm the able bodied and the privileged No one is making insulin when society collapses |
|
|
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| unlikely. A more likely explanation is that pro-violence propaganda began swamping social media in 2016, which is 9 years ago. 18 year olds have been exposed to it nonstop since they were 9 and 34 year olds since they were 25. The people who are disposed to anger and violence move along the radicalization sales funnel relatively slowly. But already once you've shown interest, you start seeing increasingly angry content and only angry content. There is a lot of rhetoric specifically telling people they should be angry, should not try to help things, and should resort to violence, and actively get others to promote violence. Being surrounded socially by that day in and day out is a challenge to anyone, and if you're predisposed to anger it can become intoxicating. A lot of people want to say marketing doesn't work or that filter bubbles don't matter. But the bare facts are that we've had nearly a decade of multiple military intelligence agencies running nonstop campaigns promoting violent ideology in the US. And it would be naive to think that didn't make a difference. The same sort of campaigns were run at a smaller scale during the Cold War and have been successful in provoking hot wars. |
| |
| ▲ | voidhorse 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you're right. Couple it with the increasing isolation driven by everyone being online 24/7 in lieu of interacting with each other in person and you have a recipe for disaster. Even though it's possible to be social on the internet, it has a strong distance effect and a lot of groups benefit by forging internet bonds over hatred, criticism, or dehumanization of others (who cares about the "normies"). In addition, in many cases one doesn't even need to interact with people for most needs (amazon etc) further contributing to isolation and the illusion that you don't need others. It's the perfect storm to make the barrier to violence really low—it's easy when you have no connection to the victims and you see them as less than human or as objects "npcs". | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Your mention of "normies" and "npcs" reminds me of an unfortunate change I saw happen in autistic communities a few years ago. Those spaces used to be great places for people to ask questions, share interests, and find relief in a community that understood them. But over just a year or two, the whole atmosphere flipped. The focus turned from mutual support to a shared antagonism toward neurotypical people, who were often dehumanized. It was heartbreaking to watch. Long-time members, people who were just grateful to finally have a place to belong, were suddenly told they weren't welcome anymore if they weren't angry enough. That anger became a tool to police the community, and many of the original, supportive spaces were lost. | | |
| ▲ | collingreen 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I am not in these spaces so it's nice to get your summary. I agree that is tragic. I've wondered about this kind of shift being an inevitable response to the growing online trope of autism being the boogeyman used to shill everything from not getting vaccinated to making your kids drink your urine. The head of us health regularly talks about autistic people as a terrible tragedy inflicted on their parents and a net negative to society. I expect that kind of rhetoric would fuel hostility across any group. | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't know that but it predates the current head of US health being a major public figure. At the time I did some data analysis on the usernames of people promoting these ideas. Before the Reddit API changes you could get statistics on subs that had an overlap of users. What I noticed was there was an overlap with fringe political subs. The autistic subs with more anger issues had more fringe political people in it and as the subs became angrier the overlap increased. Inevitably the most vocal and pushy angry people were active in those political subs. You can see similar things with the angrier comments on HN. I don't think it's an inevitable response to the things you mention. But it may be related. For example there's the term "weaponized autism" [e.g. 0]. That is, politically fringe and extreme groups talk and joke regularly about weaponizing autistic people as trolls. I think the autism forums became part of the recruiting funnel for this sort of extremism. At least that's the hypothesis that seemed to best explain all the factors. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35947316/ # I don't know if this paper or journal are any good. It's just the top hit that seemed relevant. One of the authors is Simon Baron Cohen, a well known autism researcher. | | |
| ▲ | Karrot_Kream 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm very sympathetic to this as well but I'm curious if you know any leads on research investigating this area as I hesitate to draw a conclusion with a feeling. I participate in a lot of hobbies that have autistic folks in it and I watched the same anger spread into those communities along with the predictable good-vs-evil rhetoric that autistic folks tend to fall into. | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Specifically about autism, I don't. There is an academic literature on trolling and social media, which you can find on google scholar or talking to ChatGPT or Gemini for introduction points. The papers I've read haven't been outstanding, but it's better than nothing. I thought about building tools to track it on Reddit, but with the API changes most of the existing tools have been shut down. There also used to be sites that tracked foreign influence activity but they've mostly stopped from what I can tell. I did use some of those tools to track inorganic activity in other forums (not autistic spaces at the time) and got a feel for what inorganic activity looked like. Then when I saw the changes in autistic spaces I was able to see the patterns I had already seen elsewhere. On Reddit at least, what usually happens is trolls try to become moderators. Or, failing that, they complain about moderators and fork the subreddit to a new sub they can moderate. Typically they'll show up as unproblematic power users for a few months before it becomes clear they're trolls. Once they have moderation powers it's basically over. At any rate, with LLMs it's impossible to track now. Your best bet if you're interested is to study how it works in known cases and then use your own judgment to decide if what you're seeing matches that pattern. | | |
| ▲ | Karrot_Kream 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You should totally write up what you were able to get. It's always helpful to understand how these kinds of influence campaigns start. At the very least researchers can build models off older insights even though places like Reddit are now closed off. | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 4 days ago | parent [-] | | thanks for the suggestion, I am planning to at some point. or at possibly make a video about it. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | mothballed 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >A lot of people want to say marketing doesn't work or that filter bubbles don't matter. But the bare facts are that we've had nearly a decade of multiple military intelligence agencies running nonstop campaigns promoting violent ideology in the US. And it would be naive to think that didn't make a difference. Hmm, interesting thesis. I'm aware something like half of the Whitmer Kidnapping plotters were feds/informants, to the point a few were exonerated in trial. There's certainly some evidence the government is intentionally provoking violent actors. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I believe parent was referring to the US government and other national governments. It's on record that Russian and Chinese propaganda campaigns in the US were aimed at sowing division generally, more so than any particular viewpoint. | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes that's correct. In particular, not just run of the mill division, but impersonating right and left wing militants both calling for violence. For example, just one that turned up at the top of a quick Google search > And the analysis shows that everyone from the former president, Dmitry Medvedev, as well as military bloggers, lifestyle influencers and bots, as you mentioned, are all pushing this narrative that the U.S. is on the brink of civil war and thus Texas should secede from the United States, and that Russia will be there to support this. https://www.kut.org/texasstandard/2024-02-14/russian-propaga... |
| |
| ▲ | throwaway48476 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Government employees are just trying to get promoted. So they entrap crazy people that they can then stop. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | twoodfin 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Rational by what calculus? |
|
| ▲ | throwaway250624 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
|
| ▲ | philistine 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [flagged] |
| |
| ▲ | ETH_start 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There are record low deaths from extreme weather: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65673961 | |
| ▲ | xvector 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This kind of dooming extremist rhetoric is why we are where we are today. No, it is not the "last generation of a functioning world" and we will solve climate change like we solve every other problem. | | |
| ▲ | collingreen 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a lot of info out there about the long term damage and destabilization driven by climate change. Telling people it doesn't matter is rude at best and dangerous at worst. Even your own flippant dismissal has holes though - what problem like every other problem have we solved well? Especially at this scale? History is full of nasty times; trying to avoid them isn't extremist rhetoric and calling it that is shitty. | |
| ▲ | sterlind 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > No, it is not the "last generation of a functioning world" and we will solve climate change like we solve every other problem. half-assedly, far too late and at tremendous cost, after multiple wars. but we will survive. | |
| ▲ | swagmoney1606 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How? | | |
| ▲ | myroon5 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Emission offsetting currently only costs ~$50/human/yr: https://founderspledge.com/research/climate-and-lifestyle-re... | | |
| ▲ | bccdee 5 days ago | parent [-] | | When you purchase a "carbon offset," you are paying someone not to emit carbon that they otherwise would have emitted. You're not getting rid of any actual emissions. The current marginal cost of offsets is $50/person/year because nobody buys them. But if we all paid each other not to emit any carbon, what would the cars run on? Certainly you couldn't pay a person $50/year to stop using any transportation or power. Offsets are a dead end. | | |
| ▲ | xvector 5 days ago | parent [-] | | This is incorrect, offsetting also includes carbon capture through a variety of mechanisms (often trees). | | |
| ▲ | bccdee 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It can include that. But we also don't have a carbon capture method that scales to the point that it could balance out all our emissions, so tree-planting doesn't scale either. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | chipsrafferty 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Most scientists agree that we won't solve it. |
|
|