| ▲ | afavour 5 days ago |
| Don't want to talk in bad taste by going to this so early, but... this extremely unfortunate event is going to be a very telling test for the media and society at large. A Democratic state representative in Minnesota was brutally murdered and another attacked by the same man only a couple of months ago, back in June. How many can name them? How long did their deaths stay in the headlines? How much coverage were they given, and how much coverage will Kirk be given? My cynical side suspects we are about to hear a lot about "violence from the left" in a way we did not about the right back in June. |
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| ▲ | mlinhares 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
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| ▲ | tolerance 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In bad taste only because what you’re questioning may have little to do with which side they were on. The better question to ask is, how many subscribers did the Democratic state representative from Minnesota and the other have? |
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| ▲ | bilbo0s 5 days ago | parent [-] | | This is so true and so sad at the same time that it almost portends a kind of tragic fatal destiny to the US. You can almost see factions warring for no other purpose than to gain "followers" and "likes". (Might even make an argument that we're already there?) Just sad. | | |
| ▲ | tolerance 5 days ago | parent [-] | | What you’ve described sounds like the logical outcome of Democracy in a post-digital world. I can envision a world where the future Secretary of State was a former Reddit moderator. Or worse. A Lemmy maintainer. | | |
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| ▲ | jmdwifvjmrgbj 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is not totally true. One Democratic representative was killed with her husband. The other representative was shot but survived. |
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| ▲ | afavour 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Thanks, you're totally right. Corrected my comment. | | |
| ▲ | asgeesg 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, guess they really are unknown. By the way, there are 7,386 state congressmen. A lot of Americans probably aren't even aware that their own state even has a congress. You don't even know about it and you're bringing it up. |
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| ▲ | pwenzel 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Doesn't help when Trump simply responded to Minnesota assassinations with: "you know, I could be nice and call him [Governor Walz], but why waste time?" https://www.startribune.com/trump-says-he-will-not-call-walz... It was an attempt to quell the No Kings protests scheduled to happen the same day. |
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| ▲ | HaZeust 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm glad this was shared and that this did not go unnoticed, it made me know where things were going. Figureheads weren't even pretending to care anymore - escalations are in order way before any call for de-escalation will be made. | |
| ▲ | sigzero 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | xnx 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > A Democratic state representative in Minnesota was brutally murdered ...and her husband and dog. The killer also had a long list of other targets. |
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| ▲ | bena 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We fail this test over and over and the fact that you don't realize it is telling in and of itself. Not as a remark on you, but on the media in general. |
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| ▲ | russellbeattie 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Those were my thoughts exactly. There was no presidential message expressing sympathy and outrage then and complete radio silence from Republicans in general. And the amount of misinformation from the right was incredible. Even in this thread of nominally intelligent people, they're still repeating falsehoods. Any expression of shock and dismay from conservatives now is pure theater. The right wing is absolutely fine with violence. Accusations of the violent left is of course a talking point projection as usual. |
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| ▲ | rdtsc 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > How many can name them? How long did their deaths stay in the headlines? How much coverage were they given, and how much coverage will Kirk be given? I couldn't have named Kirk if I saw him or heard about him before he shot and it entered the news. Not sure what that tells us -- we should know more who our representatives are, or know about various "influencers" in politics and such? EDIT: I saw you initially mentioned two representatives who were murdered but now it looks like there is only one. So even though you criticize others for not knowing who these murdered representatives were, it seems you don't even know who they were or if they were even murdered. > Don't want to talk in bad taste by going to this so early, but... Well this is how usually talking in bad taste early starts ;-). It's kind of like saying "No offense, but ... $insert_offense_here". |
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| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 5 days ago | parent [-] | | One key difference here is that the MN Democrats killed and injured were relatively niche/local participants in the Democratic party in MN (none of that that makes their death or injury any more acceptable or less appalling). Kirk is a highly significant figure in the right wing media world. | | |
| ▲ | germinalphrase 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Melissa Hortman wasn’t a niche local politician - she was the speaker of the Minnesota House. | | |
| ▲ | rdtsc 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | And how many people outside of Minnesota you think would know her. I bet the majority of people in MN wouldn't didn't know who she is. For instance do you know Brandon Ler, the Montana House of Representatives speaker? Or, say, Nathaniel Ledbetter, the Alabama House of Representatives? Are they "niche" politicians? In their states, no. But, absolutely yes when it comes to people from other states and more so from across the world. | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Would you care to estimate the number of Americans who even knew her name? She had power in MN, but had not become a "national" politician (yet). | | |
| ▲ | germinalphrase 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I made no claim that she was a national figure. Merely pointing out that calling a politician holding one of the highest offices in state government a niche, local politician intentionally diminishes them. | | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I was not intentionally trying to diminish her. I suspect that unless you live in New Mexico, you have no idea who the speaker of the NM House is. That's not a diminshment of the office or the person holding it, it's a recognition that while such positions come with significant power within the context of a state, they are quite hidden from residents of other states. | | |
| ▲ | germinalphrase 5 days ago | parent [-] | | They hold meaningful office within their states. That is neither niche nor local even if they lack a national profile. |
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| ▲ | zug_zug 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The other thing you're leaving out is that Charlie Kirk was actively provoking people with outrageous takes, perhaps as a social media strategy. It doesn't justify death, but it certainly makes it less surprising and more understandable. Imagine if a democrat went into the deep south and said "The confederacy was a stupid joke you should be ashamed of, it only existed for 4 years, get rid of the flag already." etc etc and posted it to social media while talking over people trying to engage in debate. Then that would be an apples-to-apples comparison. Not an elected representative. | |
| ▲ | bdangubic 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | MN Democrats were not random “niche” “Democrats” but US CONGRESSMEN | | |
| ▲ | asgeesg 5 days ago | parent [-] | | No, they weren't US congressmen. Funny you just like that other whining guy don't even know anything about the subject. "They" (actually only one) was a MINNESOTA CONGRESSMAN, not a US CONGRESSMEN. You probably aren't even aware there is a Minnesota congress. | | |
| ▲ | bdangubic 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Minnesota is part of Canada now? Must have missed that… :) | | |
| ▲ | rdtsc 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > MN Democrats were not random “niche” “Democrats” but US CONGRESSMEN
reply > Minnesota is part of Canada now? Must have missed that… :) When you've dug yourself into a hole it's good idea to stop digging and get out instead of keep digging. As the GP pointed out, a US member of Congress refers to representative in the US Congress (that one from Washington, DC). In addition to the US Congress, states have their legislative bodies. Melissa Hortman was a member of such a state legislative body -- the Minnesota House of Representatives. So on one hand you sound like you know a lot about her and want her to be more well known, on the other hand you don't even know what legislative body she was a representative in. So that's pretty confusing. | |
| ▲ | asgeesg 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You missed the part of your education that taught you the difference between a state representative and a US representative. |
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| ▲ | ceejayoz 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/19/us/minnesota-shootings-va... > Mr. Boelter developed a strong distrust of government, especially Democrats. According to Mr. Carlson, he believed that the criminal prosecutions of Donald J. Trump were politically motivated, and that a victory by the Democratic presidential candidate, Kamala Harris, would lead to civil war. He followed the Infowars website founded by the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Mmkay. | | |
| ▲ | tstrimple 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | antonymoose 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | johnmaguire 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not so much a matter of who "knows better." There's an element of whether you trust a murderer, or are all the facts and evidence around their case, more. | |
| ▲ | jawarner 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Take a look at the next sentence from your linked article. “I am pro-life personaly [sic] but it wasn’t those,” he said, using the jail’s internal messaging system. “I will just say there is a lot of information that will come out in future that people will look at and judge for themselves that goes back 24 months before the 14th. If the gov ever let’s [sic] it get out.” | |
| ▲ | dttze 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You’re a fool if you think he is telling the truth. | |
| ▲ | kennywinker 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I’d believe him if he said that before he’d lawyered up. Now, looks like building a defense to me. | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | kennywinker 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | tstrimple 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | For every single conservative each mass shooting was done by a transgender illegal immigrant Democrat until thoroughly disproven through dozens of means. Then they will just ignore the "lone wolf" white male Christian and just expect everyone else to move on with them in thoughts and prayers. It's time to stop engaging with conservatives as if they were serious people worthy of serious replies. | | | |
| ▲ | antonymoose 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-lawmaker-bca-shooting-su... > Federal prosecutors confirmed 45 Democrats were listed, including dozens of Minnesota lawmakers and members of Congress such as Rep. Angie Craig, Rep. Ilhan Omar, and Sen. Tina Smith. It also included members of Planned Parenthood, philanthropist MacKenzie Scott, who has donated hundreds of millions of dollars to the organization, and several healthcare centers across the Midwest. https://www.npr.org/2025/06/16/nx-s1-5433748/minnesota-shoot... > Authorities in Minnesota said Monday that the man arrested in a Saturday attack that killed one state lawmaker and left another wounded had a "hit list" of 45 elected officials — all Democrats. | |
| ▲ | kennywinker 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Whataboutism? Nobody is whatabouting any of the violence. They are however pointing out that media isn’t an impartial observer, and that skews everyone’s perception of what is happening. Anyway someone else responded with citations for the dem hit list, which backs up everything i said except “he voted for trump” which is impossible to know because we have secret ballots but he told his friend he voted for trump. (Citation: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/vanc...) Now tell me honestly, if the guy who shot charlie kirk turns out to have no known political affiliations but a hit list of republican politicians and activists - you’d be saying it’s complicated? | |
| ▲ | jmye 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Please provide sources for all of your claims, I made sure to verify what I wrote before I wrote it. And then provided none of those supposed “verifications” for what are probably very honorable and honest reasons. |
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| ▲ | kfrzcode 5 days ago | parent [-] | | He was a Christian and a intellectual thought leader in one of the more reasonable groups of conservative youth in the USA. You can paint TPUSA however you like but political engagement is political engagement, whether it's happening with the same color uniform you decide is the better choice or not. Welcoming and encouraging the free exchange of thought and ideas in an open forum. Free speech and American values are based directly in morality which comes to us from a higher power. This is all quite clear in the writings of the Founding Fathers and other contemporaries, but of course nowadays "American values" is shibboleth for "Nazi dogwhistles" to some population. | | |
| ▲ | Cornbilly 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >a intellectual thought leader in one of the more reasonable groups of conservative youth If calling for the military occupation of US cities is at all reasonable, I struggle to imagine what is unreasonable in your world view. | | |
| ▲ | kfrzcode 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Unreasonable is killing someone because you disagree with their opinion. | | |
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| ▲ | like_any_other 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > How many can name them? How long did their deaths stay in the headlines? I don't know - how long did these stories stay in the headlines? A 26 year old man from Irondale, Alabama was later arrested and charged in connection with the bombing. Prosecutors stated that prior to the bombing, the suspect had been spotted placing stickers on government buildings, displaying "antifa, anti-police and anti-Immigration and Customs Enforcement sentiments" and had expressed "belief that violence should be directed against the government" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Marshall#Bombing Man, 80, run over for putting Trump sign in yard, say police - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1rw4xdjql4o Alabama Antifa Sympathizer Pleads Guilty to Detonating Bomb outside State AG’s Office - https://www.nationalreview.com/news/alabama-antifa-sympathiz... a man armed with a pistol and a crossbow showed up at Fuentes' home - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fuentes#Alleged_murder_at... Attempted Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent Assassin Identifies As Transgender; Hoped To Kill “Nazis” - https://wsau.com/2025/01/30/doj-filing-attempted-treasury-se... 10 arrested after ambush on Texas ICE detention facility [..] When an Alvarado police officer arrived on the scene, one of the individuals shot him in the neck. Another individual shot 20 to 30 rounds at the facility correction officers, according to Larson. - https://abcnews.go.com/US/10-arrested-after-ambush-texas-ice... Last but not lest, there was also an assassination attempt on Trump, though I concede that one did get plenty of attention. |
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| ▲ | yonaguska 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The motives in that case don't seem to immediately be as clear cut yet. I've been waiting for this trial or more information myself because that shooter has made some very bizarre claims. He admitted that he was a Trump supporter and pro-life, but that had nothing to do with why he did it. He then made the claim that Tim Waltz had hired him to carry out the execution. It's very odd- but I can't say why media orgs didn't cover it for very long at all. |
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| ▲ | mrtksn 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Think of it as a hardening. From outsider perspective, IMHO your left is very weak and inconsistent and it's not even left from a European perspective. The far right developed stars, stallions and philosophers that are effective in the popular culture no matter how vile some of those can be. There are up and coming leftist Americans but they will need to hustle to develop intro strong leaders. The mainstream figures from the American left like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders are just too lightweight. Edit: funny how this comment fluctuates between 0 and 2 points. This edit will probably tip the balance though :) |
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| ▲ | heyjamesknight 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > and it's not even left from a European perspective. This is a meme that needs to die. Its just not true. The Democratic party in the US is right in line with Labor/Socialist/Whatever Mainstream Leftist Party you want to point at in Europe. It has members who end up on various sides of the left-wing spectrum. There are no "far left" parties in the US because we have a two party system. There are obviously topics where this is not true. But that goes both ways: almost no country on Earth has the level of abortion access that the Democratic party in the US demands. And there are examples of European right wing parties who fight for zero abortion access, which is not the GOP platform currently. | | |
| ▲ | Amezarak 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, there are just so many mismatches it doesn't make sense. - Nearly all European countries have and support a very high consumption tax (VAT). In the US, nobody would be really for this (although some conservatives favor such taxes), but US liberals would be extremely against it due to the regressive nature of consumption taxes. - The majority of EU countries institute voter ID laws, something supported only by conservatives in the US. States with voter ID laws almost always allow some valid voter ID to be gotten for free, but they are still opposed by liberals. There are plenty of other examples when you start thinking about it. | | |
| ▲ | p_ing 5 days ago | parent [-] | | We have entire 100% Democratic-run states that use regressive consumption taxing to fund the State government. |
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| ▲ | dns_snek 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What is actually a meme is this need to squash the entire universe of unrelated political beliefs into a single axis of "left vs right". The Democratic party is just as, if not more socially progressive than many European "left wing" parties on certain issues, that's true, but that's not what anyone is talking about. Issues like abortion and LGBT rights concern personal freedom, they're orthogonal to the left-right axis. When we say that the Democratic party is to the right of every European left-wing party, and to the right of most right-wing parties, what we're talking about are the economic policies that affect the lives of everyday people. US democrats can't even get behind table stakes leftist issues like universal healthcare, social safety, progressive taxation, and wealth inequality. They know who pays for their re-election campaigns and who controls the media - it's not the working class. Democrats aren't leftist, they're liberal, which is a night and day difference. | |
| ▲ | acoustics 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Democratic Party voters seem to be more aligned with Euro-style socialist policies, but among elected Democrats this is a small minority view. European socialists usually advocate for direct state ownership of certain industries, sector-wide union contracts, universal (not means-tested) child allowances, fully public health care, wealth taxes, free college, etc. There are a handful of elected Democrats that sign on to some of these views, but these have never been in the actual party platform, since the mainstream of the party roundly rejects these. Democrats are only somewhat radical in certain social/bioethical issues like abortion and LGBT rights (although the latter is being tested, with some influential Dems defecting); otherwise, the better European analogue would be Macron's Renaissance party (formerly En Marche), the UK's Lib Dems, the Nordic countries' social liberal parties. | | |
| ▲ | Amezarak 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't think there's particularly good alignment even on that "axis" (it isn't really an axis, because most things are not inherently one or the other.) A good example of that is the "sector wide union contracts" thing. The default "leftist" position in the US is that things that apply to an entire sector should be legislated rather than negotiated by workers The US does have child allowances, by the way - during Covid, it was even increased and paid out monthly instead of annually. Increasing it as of late seems to be an "R" policy, at least on the Trump wing. Are there European countries that offer free college regardless of academic achievement during high school? |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | lotsofpulp 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | mrtksn 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Europe does have left wings pop stars like Zizec and Varoufakis though. |
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