| ▲ | maeln a day ago |
| > France is in trouble because people don't want to face the math. I disagree, a lot of people here are quite aware that we are in very difficult financial situation, from all side of the political spectrum. The main issue is that there is a very big disagreement on how to solve it (i.e how/who to tax more, and where to cut spending). And with a fragmented national assembly, everything is at a deadlock right now. |
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| ▲ | astrolx a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| "The math". We don't have issue with the math, we just disagree on what to fund to balance things out. An example, 200+ billion euros are given yearly to large companies as tax breaks and the like, without the government asking anything in return. The senate had a report about it recently [https://www.publicsenat.fr/actualites/economie/un-cout-annue...]. Another example, the military and defense get a huge increase in budget. schools, hospitals, research, nearly every public service get a budget cut instead [
https://www.force-ouvriere.fr/non-aux-44-milliards-d-economi...]. |
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| ▲ | FirmwareBurner a day ago | parent [-] | | >An example, 200+ billion euros are given yearly to large companies as tax breaks and the like, without the government asking anything in return. Man, that must feel like the rug pull of the century for French taxpayers, given that despite these tax breaks, French companies like Airbus and ST are incorporated in the Netherlands and paying(more like, NOT) taxes there instead of France. I'd be pissed too, and I'd want my money back. Unless of course the purpose of those tax breaks was actually to keep some jobs in France and not see more of them move to cost efficient places like eastern Europe or north Africa. | | |
| ▲ | vladvasiliu a day ago | parent [-] | | They probably pay much less tax there. That's the whole point, they wouldn't go through the whole trouble for nothing. | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner a day ago | parent [-] | | Sounds like eliminating the NL's ability to give secret sweetheart deals to major billion dollar corporations that also benefit from tax breaks in other countries, would fix some of these problems. If you build/design your products here then you use EU's trained labor, EU's infrastructure, EU's legal system, EU's defense, etc. then you should pay your fair share to support these facilities that help you be a billion dollar corporation. | | |
| ▲ | disgruntledphd2 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > If you build/design your products here then you use EU's trained labor, EU's infrastructure, EU's legal system, EU's defense, etc. then you should pay your fair share to support these facilities that help you be a billion dollar corporation. What EU country do you live in? The only way to make this happen is to work really hard on electing national politicians who will do that, and then change the Treaties to make it possible. The EU does not currently have these powers, maybe it should? | |
| ▲ | vladvasiliu a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm usually against "big governement", and generally against the EU, and more on the side of "laissez-faire". But I have a hard time understanding how politicians figured that countries with widely varying tax regimes inside an economic union would work out for the countries with a taste for high taxes. It makes no sense to me. Of course companies are going to choose the most favorable location to incorporate. Counting on companies to be "fair-play" or whatever the politician word-of-the-day is seems completely braindead to me. Unless there were some kind of backroom deals going on, which wouldn't surprise me one bit coming from the EU nomeklatura, and now they're trying to conceal it by blaming "the rich" / "corporate greed". | | |
| ▲ | disgruntledphd2 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | > It makes no sense to me. Of course companies are going to choose the most favorable location to incorporate. Counting on companies to be "fair-play" or whatever the politician word-of-the-day is seems completely braindead to me. Unless there were some kind of backroom deals going on, which wouldn't surprise me one bit coming from the EU nomeklatura, and now they're trying to conceal it by blaming "the rich" / "corporate greed". So the issue is more around transfer pricing, which wasn't really a thing until relatively recently. This has a really, really large impact on services, particularly computer enabled services, whereas in a world where most GDP comes from goods it's not really as big a deal (as you can tax the value-add from a factory much easier than you can from a software sales deal). Unfortunately, the big corporations put a lot of money into finding ways around whatever law you pass, and the EU are not united on this stuff, at all, at all. |
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| ▲ | bwb a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have not seen any solutions by either the left or the right that mathematically solve it. In fact, the last time I checked, the far right was advocating for a lower retirement age and increased spending. The left seems to want things we all want, but we're unsure how to afford them. They never seem to have math to back it up as taxes can only go up so much, and they are already some of the highest as a percentage of GDP in the world. Can you point me to a real proposed solution by either side? |
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| ▲ | fngjdflmdflg a day ago | parent | next [-] | | >[Taxes] are already some of the highest as a percentage of GDP in the world. Is this the right metric: "Tax revenue (% of GDP)"?[0] If so, France ranks 28 at 23.1% of GDP. The highest non-island developed country is Denmark at 31.4%. Denmark's GDP per capita is 1.5x France. New Zeland's GDP per capita is similar to France and their GDP to tax rate is 29.6% which is the fifth highest. Does New Zeland face similar problems as France? I think I agree with your implication that simply increasing the tax to GDP ratio is not a magic bullet. In general, the data here is really interesting. Germany and the US have a pretty similar value, both averaging at about 11% in recent years. I would have assumed that Germany would have a higher rate. I wonder if this data is misleading somehow or if my assumptions were just wrong here. I guess one variable missing here is government debt, which is not a tax but is still used to pay for government expenses. [0] Global: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?most_... France over time: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?most_... | | |
| ▲ | vladvasiliu a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not familiar with the situation of New Zealand with respect to Australia (its neighbours). But the problem in the EU, is that there are a few countries (Ireland and the Netherlands inside the Union, and Switzerland which is right next door and enjoys many advantages and no constraints) which charge way less tax than the "central" EU countries. So companies have a tendency to set up their HQs in those countries. I'm not one to cheer for absurd taxation (which is a French specialty), but I understand why this setup does ruffle some feathers in France. | | |
| ▲ | disgruntledphd2 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I'm not familiar with the situation of New Zealand with respect to Australia (its neighbours). But the problem in the EU, is that there are a few countries (Ireland and the Netherlands inside the Union, and Switzerland which is right next door and enjoys many advantages and no constraints) which charge way less tax than the "central" EU countries. So companies have a tendency to set up their HQs in those countries. Speaking as an Irish person, this is definitely true and tax is a big reason for a lot of the multinationals we have here. However, also note that the Irish people have one the highest debt per capita, basically incurred to pay off debts to EU/UK banks during the financial crisis. If you mutualise debt, and do the capital markets union then you could 100% fix this (but the political will definitely isn't there for that). |
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| ▲ | disgruntledphd2 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > In general, the data here is really interesting. Germany and the US have a pretty similar value, both averaging at about 11% in recent years. I would have assumed that Germany would have a higher rate. I wonder if this data is misleading somehow or if my assumptions were just wrong here. I guess one variable missing here is government debt, which is not a tax but is still used to pay for government expenses. Lots of German spending is devolved to the regions, maybe your figures are missing that? | |
| ▲ | nwellnhof a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The 11% number for Germany (and probably the whole table) is completely wrong. I guess it only shows federal taxes which are about 40% of all taxes including state and municipal taxes. So total taxes are roughly 24% of German GDP. | | |
| ▲ | fngjdflmdflg a day ago | parent [-] | | Ah, I did wonder how state level taxes were being accounted for, seems like the answer is they aren't. I guess I could have looked that up before posting. The values here[0] are markedly different. It shows Germany at 45%, France at 51.53%, US at 29.21% and Denmark at 50%. So I was way off the mark there, although I did think something seemed very off with those numbers. France is the 10th highest in the world, with many of the countries above it being tiny island countries or countries with vast oil reveres relative to their size like Norway and Kuwait. With this being the case, it does seem hard to imagine that more taxes will fix everything. [0] Government revenue, percent of GDP - https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/rev@FPP/ Also relevant: Government expenditure, percent of GDP - https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/ |
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| ▲ | bwb 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In 2023, France’s tax-to-GDP ratio was 43.8%, the highest among the 38 OECD countries. | |
| ▲ | concinds a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The correct number is 48%, not 23%. I doubt even the US is that low. |
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| ▲ | imtringued 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Here is the solution: https://www.dieter-suhr.info/files/luxe/Downloads/Suhr_Struc... https://www.dieter-suhr.info/files/luxe/Downloads/Suhr-Godsc... The transaction cost approach means that the profit motive isn't a barrier either. If anything, you can make money off of solving the problem. That in itself is probably the ultimate proof that communism is wrong, because it turns communism into a self-hating ideology. Imagine being a communist controlling 1/3 of the world and deciding that you would rather see your "empire" crumble rather than convert the last 2/3 through irresistible persuasion/temptation. Not just that, but you literally start a campaign against the idea of doing so. You'd rather doom yourself than admit being a little bit wrong for even more power. |
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| ▲ | creer a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are plenty of people on every side of the problem. But it takes very few people to paralyze the country. (Even that is relative, it's not like nothing can run during these episodes. But the elected government certainly feels like they can't go forward.) |
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| ▲ | lormayna a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > a lot of people here are quite aware that we are in very difficult financial situation, from all side of the political spectrum According to the votes that Le Pen and Melanchon are supposed to get, I would not say "a lot of people". |
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| ▲ | greenhearth a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Just redistribute the resources, cap prices and let the economy prop up itself. The rich have to give it up for sake of stability and greater good. I'm sure they will understand lol |
