> Close is all that is possible with human systems.

Yes, but there is 'close' with trying to get it as good as you can and there is 'close' without even trying. With is obviously better. To me, at least, even if it is slower.

> The alternative is giving up on all legal action, because every single one is fallible.

No, the alternative is to do your very best and to only disrupt lives when you have to, not just because you can. That's harder than just black and white and that is where judges come in and why people have a right to due process.

> Would you forego all law enforcement in your own country because of a nonzero error rate?

I don't think that's the choice. The choice is between having law enforcement that is bound by rules and law enforcement that is not bound by rules. The latter is - to me - unacceptable. I think everybody has a right to due process.

The last time we had a regime in NL that did not agree with that thesis is still very much in living memory here so I don't think you're going to find a lot of takers for Razzias and mass deportations. If that were to happen here in NL I'd find the nearest barricade and join the resistance. And I'm pretty sure I would not be alone in that.

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s1artibartfast a day ago | parent [-]

All the concern from our European friends strikes me as somewhat hypocritical. My understanding is that NL has administrative deportations as well, essentially the same legal process the US is using. They also have a history of being much tighter immigration enforcement than the USA.

It especially seems like pearl clutching in the context of this article. What would the NL do if Tesla or some such was found to be employing hundreds of illegal workers without proper visas? Would they be deported and would you grab a molotov join the resistance?

I think most reasonable people can agree officials should be bound by rules and law. There as substantial difference on what people think those rules are.

There is also a huge subset of people that care nothing of the law, and think deportations are illegal because they don't agree with their politics.

	▲	jacquesm a day ago \| parent [-]
		> My understanding is that NL has administrative deportations as well, essentially the same legal process the US is using. With as massive difference that we don't do razzias by masked people arresting as many people as they can to meet their quota. See, we still have a functional legal system here where you can get your day in court, even as an immigrant, illegal or otherwise. Not that there aren't voices like Trump's here in NL, clearly we have those idiots here too. And unfortunately they are doing well in the polls. But for the moment, there are still crucial differences between NL and the USA when it comes to the rule of law. > They also have a history of being much tighter immigration enforcement than the USA. That depends. There is first of all the massive difference between six different groups of countries: - the neighboring countries of Luxembourg and Belgium with whom we have been in a kind of mini-EU for many decades - then there are the main trading partners France, Germany and until recently the UK with whom we had very good reciprocal relationships. - Then there are the - mostly former - colonies. - Then there are the countries in the Schengen area of the EU - then the rest of the EU countries. - Then we have some long running friendship programs with for instance, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan - Then we have exceptions for students from all over the world - Then there are refugees from war zones - Then there are refugees for other reasons (for instance: because they are persecuted in the country they are from for their religion or sexual preferences) - and then there is everybody else As you can see, it gets complicated. If NL would find that Tesla was employing hundreds of illegal workers without proper visa's I'm fairly sure that they would first look at what the actual damage is and how the situation could be addressed. There likely would be a joint effort by EZ and Immigration to work out what should be done and this would then be implemented. At no point anywhere in that process do I see a razzia of a construction side as even a remote possibility. > Would they be deported and would you grab a molotov join the resistance? That's not how resistance works here in NL, but if they did start violence against what we call guest workers here, then yes, I would definitely come to their defense and so would a couple of hundred thousand other Dutch people. Simply because we are more than happy to serve as check on our authorities when they start doing inhumane stuff. > I think most reasonable people can agree officials should be bound by rules and law. There as substantial difference on what people think those rules are. Well, one thing that is simple is that there is an automatic right to due process here, no matter what the crime. And that right to due process includes a right to appeal and then if you have had your day(s) in court and have lost then in fact you can be deported and this does actually happen. > There is also a huge subset of people that care nothing of the law, and think deportations are illegal because they don't agree with their politics. That could be, but I don't personally know any such people.