Was US ever a liberal democracy? People had much less liberties in the 1950s than today, with people getting arrested for their political views instead of just deported. not to mention segregation and such.

They even put lawyers defending these politicians in prison for defending them... The constitution doesn't seem to matter since the government apparently don't have to care about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

▲

watersb 9 days ago | parent [-]

> Was US ever a liberal democracy? People had much less liberties in the 1950s than today,

Your question deserves an answer.

The US was a liberal (post-Enlightenment) democracy.

Senator McCarthy was eventually kicked out of Congress for his witch hunt.

President Nixon was confronted by Republican members of Congress, and he resigned after this meeting rather than face impeachment.

So when I was a kid, lawmakers largely upheld the norms, the rule of law. Many of those same lawmakers might have today been considered racist or misogynist or might have failed some other standard of 21st century society.

As a liberal democracy, the United States has never been perfect, but it's always been worth improving.

▲

coldtea 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

>Senator McCarthy was eventually kicked out of Congress for his witch hunt

"Eventually discarded when no longer useful" would be a more accurate phrasing. The witch hunts continued under other schemes and for other targets.

>As a liberal democracy, the United States has never been perfect, but it's always been worth improving.

Well, isn't that the case with every government?

▲

ineedaj0b 9 days ago | parent [-]

it was a good witch hunt. we very much almost lost the Cold War to the soviets. the US public and government officials had no idea how bad it was in the USSR. The majority of intellectuals glazed the Soviet Union.

We witch hunted. We also got lapped by the FSB most years. What saved us was our economic engine.

	▲	watersb 8 days ago \| parent [-]
		> The US public and government officials had no idea how bad it was in the USSR. My wife's grandparents had a subscription to "Soviet Life" magazine, beautiful postcard photos and articles about the glowing future of mankind, collective posts capitalist society... From the 1950s. We've got stacks of them. Wild. So, yes: many intellectuals in the United States had an "I want to believe" attitude. > It was a good witch hunt. There's no such thing as a good witch hunt. When you are targeting innocent people, destroying lives in the name of freedom, there can be no liberty. Inciting mob justice is playing with fire. It's a form of insanity. Our judicial system was designed to find fact and render judgment as far from that madness as possible. It's imperfect but can be made to work. > We very much almost lost the Cold War to the Soviets. Anyone who spent a weekend in a nuclear bomb shelter in the summer of 1983 knows there was no winning in that Cold War. Everyone was losing. > What saved us was our economic engine. The short answer is yes, I agree. There's a much longer answer. I toured a tiny bit of Estonia and Russia in the summer of 1990. I wish I could tell you in just a few words how I saw a thousand acts of bravery, many acts of brutality, and more than anything a million hungry people who wanted better for their children. What saved us was our economic engine, our mutual commitment to the welfare and defense of our NATO allies, our intelligence service and our diplomatic corps. Career professionals and rational leadership. Not witch hunts.

▲

Jensson 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> So when I was a kid, lawmakers largely upheld the norms, the rule of law

Only when McCarthy and those policies got unpopular, they let him do it as long as he was popular. So we will likely see the same with Trump, as long as he doesn't make as grave overreaches as they did back then likely nobody will do anything to him.

That isn't rule of law, that is rule of personality.

▲

chasd00 8 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Only when McCarthy and those policies got unpopular, they let him do it as long as he was popular.

isn't this democracy at work? will of the people and all that?

	▲	Jensson 8 days ago \| parent [-]
		Democracy? Yes. Liberal democracy? No. A core part to liberal democracy is that the government must follow the law. If the government doesn't follow the law due to checks and balances failing then its not a liberal democracy.

▲

SlightlyLeftPad 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Or popularity rather.

▲

Jensson 9 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, so not exactly liberal democracy. It is a democracy, but doesn't seem very liberal if the checks and balances doesn't work against popular policies.

▲

inglor_cz 9 days ago | parent [-]

I would argue that in that case, liberal democracy is an oxymoron.

Really popular policies have a wide support among the population, which means that they will became law, or even an amendment to the constitution. (Most countries have something like 3/5 supermajority requirements for changing constitutions, which is a lot more practical than the basically-as-of-now-impossible US procedure.)

At this moment, if you want to keep "liberal" character of the country, your "checks and balances" institutions have to act in a fairly authoritarian ways and invalidate laws which attracted supermajority support. What is then stopping such institutions to just rule as they see fit? Even checks and balances need checks and balances.

Nevertheless, I would say that "liberal democracy" isn't one that can always prevent illiberal policies from being enacted. I would say that it is one that can later correct them.

Note that historically, most obvious executive encroachments of liberty (Guantanamo etc.) in the US were later overturned by new administrations.

▲

Jensson 8 days ago | parent [-]

> Really popular policies have a wide support among the population, which means that they will became law, or even an amendment to the constitution

McCarthyism didn't have that much support from voters, so this isn't the issue, it didn't become law. The issue is that the elected representatives didn't do anything to stop it until it started having massive disapproval from voters.

Voters needing to massively disapprove of government abuse for the "checks and balances" to do their job means the democracy isn't working as it should, the government doesn't need to change the constitution they just need to keep disapproval low enough to continue with their illegal actions. In a true liberal democracy the checks and balances works, ministers who perform illegal acts are investigated and relieved of their duties without needing elected representatives to start that procedure.

I live in Sweden and I can't even find examples of a politician that blatantly ignores laws and procedures that get to stay for years here. I think the two party system is the biggest culprit, then you need support from both parties to remove criminal politicians, but that is very difficult to get when people have to vote against their own. In a multi party system each party is a minority, and allied parties are not friendly to each other, they gladly sink an ally to absorb their votes since the issue was the party and not the alliance, people wont move to the other block over such a thing.

▲

inglor_cz 8 days ago | parent [-]

Sweden supports Chat Control on European level, even though the very principle of Chat Control is anathema to basic civic rights.

Is widespread surveillance of private communications popular with Swedish electorate, or do people like Ylva Johansson support and even push such abominable things regardless of what actual Swedes think?

If the latter, it is not that different from what McCarthy once did, and our entire continent is in danger that this sort of paranoid dystopia gets codified into law approximately forever. At least McCarthy's era was short.

	▲	Jensson 7 days ago \| parent [-]
		Yes they are trying to change the laws to be more oppressive which I don't like, but at least they aren't doing that illegally. I feel the EU level is not very democratic since its more removed from voters, similar to the US federal level, I see the same kinds of problems in both. As long as the EU doesn't get the same level of power as the US federals I am happy though since local lawmakers can fix things.