| ▲ | pm90 6 days ago |
| I have principles-fatigue after going through a number of companies that promise to abide by certain good sounding principles only to backtrack at the slightest pushback. I would actually trust a company more if it had no defined principles. Perhaps just honesty and transparency. |
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| ▲ | hibikir 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Possibly a better alternative than, say, Bridgewater when Ray Dalio was in charge. Adherence to principles was part of a high percentage of decision making conversations, but since is book is so big, they might be best compared to theological arguments in the middle ages, with different specialists arguing with different quotes from different parts of the book. All in all, once an organization gets big enough, power does what power wants, and power wants what is good for them in the short term, regardless of what is good for the organization. That's how most large companies end up spending very large amounts of money on things that wouldn't actually pass muster to anyone aiming for the organization's best interest and with actual knowledge of what is being accomplished. You see new, wide eyed PMs approaching budgeting processes as if the goal really was profitability, or customer satisfaction, or something reasonable. But if they are going to stay as PMs for long, they better realize quick that the vast majority of project proposals have only a passing interest in what will be accomplished, and are mainly about making sure every sub-organization gets fed sufficient money to not lose people, or possibly even grow if the manager is well liked. All the efforts in documentation and justification are just theater. |
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| ▲ | neilv 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > All in all, once an organization gets big enough, power does what power wants, and power wants what is good for them in the short term, regardless of what is good for the organization. This has the ring of truth. Has anyone solved this problem? Is anyone trying to solve this problem? (Or is everyone in a position to work on the problem just playing the game?) | | |
| ▲ | forshaper 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | On smaller scales. I suspect alignment to long-term profits weirdly solves it at larger scales, but that kind of unbridled greed is weirdly hard for large organizations anyway. The thing it wants is usually continuation of certain hierarchies, and singular long-term goals toward anything tend to disrupt that. | |
| ▲ | marcus_holmes 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Valve? Though I have no idea how they're going now with the anarchy-as-an-organisational-structure thing these days. | | |
| ▲ | bluesroo 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I remember in the 2010s reading about them and also reading that there are de facto hierarchies within Valve for given projects, even if they aren’t explicitly laid out. | | |
| ▲ | neilv 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It would be interesting if the de facto hierarchies arose entirely by bottom-up merit (not, say, approval from above), and were flexible and ephemeral, not self-perpetuating. People could self-organize, on-demand, for a task, and structure whatever hierarchy was appropriate, based on somewhat optimal resource allocations for that task. (Example: Person A might normally be the most experienced at facilitating the group's coordination, but A is providing key technical expertise for this task. Person B isn't critical path on this task, and has facilitating skills and interest in that role, so B volunteers for that role for the duration of the task.) |
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| ▲ | AnotherGoodName 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If i’m honest I feel the issue is all the humans with human motivations. An AI run organisation may solve it? | | |
| ▲ | neilv 6 days ago | parent [-] | | So far, the majority of the "AI" adoption we're seeing since ChatGPT is reflecting some of those undesirable human motivations. (It's actually worse than I thought the baseline human motivations/intention were.) |
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| ▲ | o1bf2k25n8g5 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >> power does what power wants > Has anyone solved this problem? You're asking if anyone has solved the problem... of human nature? I don't think it's at the top of most people's lists of action items. > Is anyone trying to solve this problem? Your nearest meditation center, I suppose. | | |
| ▲ | benreesman 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Human nature admits a spectrum of outcomes on this, and I'd argue that most humans are not in fact pathologically acquisitive and power obsessed. Most humans value high status, but healthy societies confer high status in ways de-coupled from counterproductive Putinism. The people who attended the fifth Solvay Conference (that famous photo), who ran the Manhattan Project, who put men on the moon (or went) all were fabulously high status for good reasons with incentives that served society rather than parisitizing it. Those people got to be admired and enjoy the privileges of high status without bankrupting the body politic for countless commas. This Bezos-style hyperaquisition isn't new exactly but it's not the constant norm its currently made out to be: its a sociecal failure mode with clear precedent but by no means a constant and its not at all obvious that it's inevitable. | | |
| ▲ | bluesroo 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I’d agree that most humans are not pathological power seekers; however I believe that’s exactly why we end up with successful pathological power seekers. Like the world is learning with nukes, you cannot rely on the powerful for mercy. You can only rely on the powerful to grasp for more power and the only way to stop them is to yourself be as strong as possible. If a utopia ever exists, it will only be because of a stalemate arms race (see: no nuclear powers have had an open war). Peaceful utopia is otherwise too easily disrupted by a single asshole with a big stick. |
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| ▲ | seer 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder what happened with Frédéric Laloux’s “reinventing organisations”? Seemed to have so much promise at the time when Ruby on Rails was a new thing and people were laughing at DHH’s joke essay on the “Emotional Programmer”… This all seems like a failure of incentives - the hard truth is that organisations that survive long enough all end up valuing only the survival of the organisation itself - and structure incentives accordingly. But maybe there is a way to modify these incentives somewhat? Humanity all thought that monarchies are the only way of ruling successful states for _thousands_ of years … but now they are almost gone, and people live much more happy and productive lives. Maybe we can figure out a way to shape institutions to not only have an “executive branch” but some other institutions that can also govern it. We kinda have the idea of CEO and “board” which share power, maybe there is one or two more power centers that we can add that will ultimately prolong the life of an org? |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I loved what Dalio wrote before Principles (like his white paper for All Weather) but Principles seemed to be mad self-aggrandizement done on such a scale to get a "Emperor's Clothes" kind of reaction from people. My sources were telling me about how Dalio was driving David Ferrucci crazy [1] trying to make an AI that could enforce Principles before I read about it in Bloomberg. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ferrucci | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The organizational function you describe where departments become self-serving, empire building, and forget that they need to produce something with ROI for the company, felt rampant during the 2010s. Then the easy money stopped and those companies were forced to look at the ROI of different departments. Entire initiatives or departments were getting cut as soon as budgets stopped growing and executives had to check the reality of what was working for the company and what had become a jobs program. It’s really frustrating that layoffs are the corrective action. I know a lot of people who were good employees doing arguable good work, but who got hired into departments doing dumb things. As for junior PMs: I’d be ecstatic if they arrived with a pure profit motive. Lately they arrive full of ideas from Reddit, Twitter, podcasts, and books where they think the only product that matters is building their resume to get the next job. Half of them are min-maxing their effort to resume appeal ratio with every decision. Possibly anecdotally but the junior PMs I’ve had to work with lately are also very obviously doing variations of overemployment where they’re either working on their friends’ startup or just blatantly taking multiple remote jobs and being unavailable half the time. I don’t know why PM roles attract the worst of this, but’s it seems to be the target role for people who want to abuse our remote openings. I should note that great PMs are a massive boost to a team, it’s just getting harder to find them. | | |
| ▲ | Muromec 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Half of them are min-maxing their effort to resume appeal ratio with every decision. If it’s good for the company to operate like that, it can’t be bad for an employee, right? Moral corruption started from the top and once it reaches bottom, it’s all about proverbal catalytic converters off the company truck. Then the whole thing collapses of course | |
| ▲ | lazide 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Like a good soldier being conscripted into a shit army, life ain’t fair. Always brutal to see, though. |
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| ▲ | jollyllama 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > they might be best compared to theological arguments in the middle ages, with different specialists arguing with different quotes from different parts of the book. > power does what power wants It would be nice if, in more cases, we could dispense with fictions such as the former and simply acknowledge the latter, in a transparent way, and move on. | |
| ▲ | seanhunter 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > All in all, once an organization gets big enough, power does what power wants, There is an interesting hypothesis for this in the book "The Evolution of Civilizations" by Carroll Quigley[1]. Basically his idea in the book is that as organizations (or civilizations) get beyond a certain critical mass, people start to lose connection with the collective goals that originally united them and start to coalesce around internal goals related to their smaller unit. So this in a company is when you go from everyone devoting all their efforts to the shared mission and instead working on team goals or (worse) internal politics that may or may not be aligned with the bigger goal. It's a very interesting book. He's a controversial figure because some of his (other) writings are popular among conspiracy theorists. I haven't read that stuff, but this certainly made sense to me at the time that I read it. [1] https://ia801601.us.archive.org/4/items/CarrollQuigley-TheEv... |
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| ▲ | cperciva 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The Leadership Principles are less "principles" and more "operational guidelines". Aside from maybe "Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer" (which is a recent addition) they're not saying what Amazon wants to achieve; they're recommendations for effective ways to get things done. |
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| ▲ | throwaway439080 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | "Strive to be Earth's Best Employer" coming from Amazon leadership is maybe best understood as a joke. Amazon is a meat grinder, even more so since the big tech layoffs started. (This kind of comment always elicits current Amazon engineers who disagree because they haven't personally experienced this. To them, I say: Stay at Amazon long enough and it /will/ happen to you. To those currently in the grinder: I hit the eject button at L6 and found a much better gig; it gets better!) | | |
| ▲ | brians 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I had lunch with the Amazon leader most responsible for ensuring all staff in the fast-moving-cardboard half of the company had health insurance from day one of employment, no waiting time. Of a decades long career, that was the one thing I saw most animate her—care for fellow humans. When the 90th percentile employee has a GED and works warehouse or delivery, actions to earn “best employer” may be invisible or worse to the 5% who are software people. I’ve worked at Meta too, and Meta absolutely had better coffee. And WAY better health insurance. But Amazon’s health insurance is uniform for all staff, and that means something. | |
| ▲ | hinkley 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In Seattle there are some developers who call Amazon employees AmHoles. It's part their general arrogance, punctuated by things like their tendency to walk down the sidewalk four abreast and not notice that they are pushing people going the other way out of their way. I worked a short contract there and I've seen the 'meatgrinder' bit. I joked (not really joking) with my fellow contractors that maybe the reason they walk four abreast is shell-shock, not arrogance. A couple days a week we went to lunch in a daze. It's clear there's not enough quality control in their 'culture', by almost an order of magnitude. I've known two different people who quit after less than 2 weeks. One after being called on Sunday asking why he wasn't at work. On his second fucking week at the company. | |
| ▲ | TrainedMonkey 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | In many ways they are the best employer, just for shareholders and not employees. |
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| ▲ | pzmarzly 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If they are just recommendations, perhaps Amazon shouldn't require them in their recruitment and performance review processes :) | | |
| ▲ | monkeydreams 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > perhaps Amazon shouldn't require them in their recruitment and performance review processes They are selecting for people who will "play the game" or, even better, will believe proactively. No one with a lick of sense would believe that Amazon strive to be the best employer in the world. But someone who is capable of doing, for e.g., a highly skilled coding job and who believes that Amazon actually strives to be the best employer, is a rare beast who will likely not unionize at the drop of a hat. | | |
| ▲ | hinkley 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I "love" how some people think it's important to do a 7 hour interview pressure cooker with a prospective employee to see how they behave in a crisis. This is a straight up condemnation of their development culture and they are so blind they don't even see it. What they want is people who are content to live in a perpetual crisis instead of people who will put their foot down and work like hell to fix it. The amount of blood I'll bleed for a team I've been gelling with for two years is a lot. The amount I'm going to bleed for some jackass I just met who wants me to lick his boots for a job is approximately zero. I hated frat boys in college for the frat culture. I didn't expect to find it in dev culture as an adult. They're called Frat BOYS for a reason. Fuck hazing. |
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| ▲ | wetpaws 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | gtowey 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Values statements are usually somewhere between a wish list and propaganda. My cynical take is that a company's stated values are exactly the opposite of the behavior you'll find most common in the company. |
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| ▲ | Muromec 6 days ago | parent [-] | | It makes sense. When leadership speaks topdown in principles, they want some kind of change to happen, so whatever being communicated can be presumed to not be there before. |
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| ▲ | cyanydeez 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We're witnessing in real time, in the USA, that what matters is the coherent mesh of individual principles, and not some words on a page somewhere. |
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| ▲ | kangs 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Principles are just nice words, and that's it. It's, IMO, the action/reward loop that matters most (i.e. incentives). Most, if not all big tech companies do not align incentives with principles - quite the opposite. Most folks in a position of leadership utilize principles and other "nice sounding arguments" for their own personal benefit, i.e. block internal competitors with principles (works great against employees with integrity and quality ethics) while claiming to follow these.. without actually following any. I'm sure everyone here has had some taste of it, or even discussions on how this sucks but "they gotta play the game". Not playing the game is extremely hard when it comes to promos, salary, or getting a large project to go with your name on it (I'd know..). So, until this rant become common sense, principles will just be that - nice words. |
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| ▲ | OrvalWintermute 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I can’t help but think of Google’s “Don’t be evil” mantra………. Before their heavy handed censorship machine ramped up |
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| ▲ | stevage 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah and the heartfelt promise by the founders to never ever introduce advertising on the Search page because of the unavoidable conflict of interest. |
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| ▲ | hinkley 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Principles are what you do when things are hard. I know from painful experience that it's easier to forgive someone who has never promised you they have them than someone who has and then backpedals. Even allowing for the fact that most such statements are aspirational more than descriptive, there are degrees where it transitions from not reaching your goals to straight up betrayal. |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Quickly approaching 50y, I have learnt that company principles are marketing material put out by HR, where we spend useless time on yearly trainings, and like you mention, no one really abides by them. Not a single company I worked on, did they ever mattered beyond company's marketing material. |
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| ▲ | greesil 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Stock price is usually a principle. I've never heard of a company being completely nihilistic, but maybe there are some out there. |
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| ▲ | stevage 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They all have one principle: make money. Everything else is negotiable. |
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| ▲ | hn_throwaway_99 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wish all companies would just state the obvious and list the first principle as "Make Money". Perhaps it should go without saying, but sometime around the 90s or so, many companies tried to pretend that they had these lofty, societal goals, and they tried to pretend that making money was almost secondary. The reason I think it's important to list "make money" as the first, primary goal is that it makes it clear that all other goals are subservient to that one. The thing that makes my eyes roll about principles and mission statements is I've seen them all promptly thrown out the window when a company's money making machine is threatened. Essentially, they're principles when they're aligned with making money, but if circumstances change in the slightest, the principles will be jettisoned if they make it harder to make money (which kind of makes it hard to call them "principles" in the first place - maybe "guidelines" would be a better term?) |
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| ▲ | stevage 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I had a few months inside Facebook, and saw this in action on the internal FB. People would raise objections to unethical actions by the company, and the response was basically "Yeah, but it makes soooo much money." |
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| ▲ | iLoveOncall 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Amazon DOES follow them very closely, it's quite unlike any other company in that aspect. |
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| ▲ | ignoramous 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Using principles (as stick and a carrot) is not the same as following it. That said, I do get what you're trying to say: Leadership Principles are inescapable at Amazon, whether or not you want to progress in your career, whether you know how to game it or not, those commandments are set in stone. | |
| ▲ | FireBeyond 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'd challenge most Amazon employees to be able to even name all the principles. | | |
| ▲ | iLoveOncall 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I have absolutely no doubt that the extreme majority would be able to without struggling at all. |
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| ▲ | 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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