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neilv 7 days ago

> The company has flagged its unique pay structure, lagging AI reputation, and rigid return-to-office rules as major hurdles.

No mention of reputation for harsh/ruthless/backstabby management practices towards employees (including for tech white collar, not just biz and blue collar)?

Is that not a major factor? Or are they not aware of it? Or is mentioning it politically off-limits? Or is putting it in writing a big PR risk? Or is putting it in writing a big legal risk?

I know Amazon's reputation for treating employees poorly came up in multiple discussions at one university's big-name AI lab, for example. Not only do some people read the news, but people talk, in groups and privately.

ryandrake 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

After reading so many horror stories (whether actually true or not), my mind now just associates working at Amazon with mostly negatives: They're going to ride you like a horse and beat you up, for below-average compensation, and then if you want to claw your way up, it's a Game Of Thrones style slugfest with few winners. The opposite of "Rest and Vest." If this is exaggerated, they sure aren't doing any PR work to deny it or counter this negative reputation.

pydry 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

They also produce legions of managers who get fed up working for amazon and leave for greener pastures which they then turn toxic.

PhoenixReborn 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

I have personally seen this happen (ex-Amazon managers coming in and turning the place toxic) at 2 separate companies now

snoman 6 days ago | parent [-]

I’ve heard multiple recruiters (from different agencies in different geos) refer to them as “amholes” and said they’re hard to place and difficult to break their bad habits.

neilv 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I've bumped into a lot of execs who say they don't want to hire ICs or managers (usually only one or the other) coming from specific big-name companies, and will instruct external and internal recruiters/HR and hiring managers about that.

Not big-name companies in general, but specific companies among them.

It seems to be about belief of culture taint risk (e.g., the way engineering is done, or the misaligned careerism or sharp-elbowedness that's promoted by the company). Though there's also sometimes a belief that particular large companies hire lots of people who aren't good (only, apparently, at LeetCode interviews).

I'm a bit sympathetic to those theories, though I personally don't rule out any individual. I think, say, all the FAANGs do also have individual people who are capable and well-intentioned, and haven't been permanently branded with whatever problematic culture of the company they're at.

(Though there was a time when I thought a person wouldn't have gone to one particular social media company unless they were either a sociopath or completely unaware of news in the real world, but it's more nuanced now. And there's currently an aggressively pro-fascism company that AFAICT never should've seemed like a good idea to anyone who wasn't evil or oblivious, though, I have to remember that they like to hire "impressionable children", and we now have tech track undergrads who haven't had time for anything but STEM classes and LeetCode since early teens, so they might be forgiven. I was recently considering denylisting anyone who'd gone to a different tech company, which had a well-known decades-long history of chronic underhandedness, but then I saw that a colleague who'd majorly helped me out once had finally gone there. Which is another lesson to myself not to generalize in ways unfair to the individual.)

arghnoname 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

If you want to hire people who share your values and your values include moral responsibility for the megacorp one works for, you’re right not to hire from companies you feel are immoral.

I personally don’t ascribe corporate amorality (as opposed to immorality) to all who work for it and thus with narrow exceptions would blacklist someone for working at a company who, e.g., has a CEO I dislike, practices wage suppression, etc.

trenchpilgrim 7 days ago | parent [-]

I would strongly consider against hiring someone who worked in certain addiction based industries such as tobacco or gaming (not gamedev, the other kind).

pydry 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I think it's unfair to apply these rules to culture-takers like ICs but an exec who has been there a while? Their CV should go straight in the trash.

closeparen 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hiring ex-Amazon managers credibly signals to capital markets that a tech company past its hype phase is getting serious about controlling costs and disciplining lazy or entitled engineers. It’s in their interest to have this reputation.

dreamcompiler 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> they sure aren't doing any PR work to deny it or counter this negative reputation.

They don't seem to give a shit. In the retail space their name means "low quality Chinese counterfeit products with fake reviews" and I've seen no effort on Amazon's part to counter that perception either.

rr808 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> for below-average compensation

Maybe compared to FAANG, but not compared to most corporate developer jobs out there.

titanomachy 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s better for them if they have this reputation. It lets them select for desperate people.

PartiallyTyped 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

At least in Europe I have a lot of trouble finding companies paying me as much as Amzn does, and it’s not even close.

Perhaps working for American companies remotely will change that view, but it’s too much a hassle for me at the moment.

tonyhart7 7 days ago | parent [-]

amazon is known to be lower end of FAANG, its more a logistic company tbh

logistics in terms of hardware and software not necessary bleeding tech in giants club

PartiallyTyped 6 days ago | parent [-]

That’s far from the truth..

tonyhart7 6 days ago | parent [-]

so you didn't read the original article????

PartiallyTyped 6 days ago | parent [-]

So you are basing your comment on what Amzn does based on comments from HR?

Please…

AWS does a lot of bleeding edge stuff, many of which never make it to prod.

tonyhart7 6 days ago | parent [-]

"AWS does a lot of bleeding edge stuff"

apparently this bleeding edge tech is basically a low tech in another FAANG company

sorry, they are not in the same league

but if its for producing AWS slop service, amazon win. I can give you that

PartiallyTyped 6 days ago | parent [-]

Sorry that’s just hilarious.

pinkmuffinere 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> unique pay structure

As an ex-Amazonian, I hate seeing this corporate euphemism. We would be reminded yearly that compensation at Amazon was “peculiar”, when really it was just relatively low for FAANG. I would have preferred frank honesty, which I think would look like “we pay relatively low wages, for relatively good engineers, and the difference makes more money”

Anon1096 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

That used to be the case but as of a couple years ago (maybe 2023?) pay packages got bumped and in terms of TC Amazon is very competitive now. You'll likely get a better offer than Google in cash value. But the non-TC benefits are really really bad (no free food, 5 day RTO, oncall policies, etc). For those reasons I think most would take a Meta or AI lab offer over Amazon right now if they're willing to grind.

9tA3xlwgfGlab 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Interesting, one would think that would mean easier interviews and whatnot so as to allow for greater number of applicants and churn, but it is not what I have heard about it.

israrkhan 7 days ago | parent [-]

it is a good place for new graduates to solve some challenging engineering problems at scale and learn. Most of the employees do not last more than 2 years. People who stick for longer, admire that type of culture and are made for amazon. Their stock has also performed extremely well.

senderista 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I had senior faculty in a top-5 CS program tell me that they steered their students away from AWS because they didn't want them to be miserable.

downrightmike 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That's not a bug, but a feature