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iLoveOncall 6 days ago

As someone who has been working at Amazon for not far from a decade, the author misunderstands some portions because of his focus on a very specific part of the description.

In particular for "Ownership", the part about "They act on behalf of the entire company, beyond just their own team." does not at all mean what the author implies, and is well connected to the rest of the description instead, about weighing your decisions against the impact it has beyond your team.

Anyways, a lot of those actually exist only to silence the employees, not as real values (although they are used as values within teams). Like the single mention of "Ownership" being enough to legitimate not giving employees annual refreshers on stocks when they have dropped by 50% and so has everyone's compensation. Or "Disagree and commit" when people push back on the return to office.

cperciva 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

In particular for "Ownership", the part about "They act on behalf of the entire company, beyond just their own team." does not at all mean what the author implies, and is well connected to the rest of the description instead, about weighing your decisions against the impact it has beyond your team.

Sure, but how can you weigh the impact your decisions have across the entire company if you don't know what's happening in the rest of the company. You can't make good decisions when you're blind to what's going on around you.

felixgallo 6 days ago | parent [-]

Amazon's staff is about the size of 1800s London. There's no way anyone could understand all of what's going on, so people have to use judgement to assess what they know, proxy what they don't know, and move forward.

felixgallo 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I also worked for Amazon for not far from a decade, and I don't think Colin's misunderstanding anything. His commentary on Ownership, as I read it, is that he would like to see Amazon take a broader tech-ecosystem role and act as steward/referee/high-standard-insister in order to help make the entire Internet better. AWS is particularly well-placed for this because its mission is to give the people what they want in exchange for money, rather than to sell the people to other people or radicalize grandma for clicks, so it doesn't have some of the suspicious ethical positions that burden other places in the space.

I think he's completely correct, but I also think that AWS and Amazon are currently in a retrenching/cost-eliminating reactive mode, are trying to triage and assess the impact of (waves hands vaguely) all this, and are not currently thinking too hard about taking on new non-monetizable strategic leadership initiatives.

As far as Amazon's siloing goes -- it's not great, but it starts to look positively nonexistent when you consider the knives-out political infighting of its competitors. At Amazon I was frequently in coopetition with other teams that drew from the same budget pool as mine, and some of them (not to their credit) would use any means necessary to empire build. On the positive side, that kind of behavior was unusual, and I, and many other managers in my experience, happily gave up ownership and readjusted plans when it was clearly in the best interests of the business and eventually the customer.

It may look from the outside that there are many 'silos' owing to Amazon's deep parallelized structure -- consider each individual team working to deliver an AWS service, for example -- and it's definitely true that some of the older Amazonian mechanisms for synchronizing team goals and ensuring leadership coherence have decayed over time -- but generally the teams do roll up in a sensible way and are reviewed together in a sensible way, and alignment is generally better inside AWS/Amazon than any peer.

mikert89 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

leadership principles are relevant to high level amazon employees, L6 and below they are used as a control mechanism/justification to call out low performance

pvtmert 6 days ago | parent [-]

As a ~4 year tenured L5, I agree. There is annual performance review system called Forte. During forte, each person is rated in each leadership principles (LPs) by their peers and manager, possibly from away-team members.

As the parent mentioned, nowadays the scope is extremely limited. Citing Ownership (ie. this/that team has the ownership...) reasons. I see LPs are currently weaponised to limit promotions/pay-raises.

I am not a low-performer or anything, in fact, I proactively find problems and fix them. I do not like to complain (which most people do) and if it takes <=10% of my weekly working time (ie. 4 hours or less) then I create a ticket and add this to my personal backlog. Then, when I go through my backlog, I prioritize these things according to their predicted complexity and impact. I take the low-complexity/big-impact things and do those in a 4-hour period.

When I fix the things, I update the ticket and send a CR (pull-request) to the owning team of the package. I even have a script to pick out a recent committer in the repository to add them as an optional reviewer, which helps quite a lot, as most of the teams do not track their CR (pull-request) queues at all. (neither proactively or even with notifications)

Nevertheless, 3 years back to back, I have been rated negatively for the following LPs - Think-Big - Ownership - Bias-for-Action

Moreover, I have not only participated in Hackathons but even organised org-wide (Director/L8) hackathons & events. Not to mention that my manager, my skip, and their manager (director) all in different regions than mine. I didn't had any TPM in my org in my region either.

It super frustrating as an engineer as certain minor occurrences weaponised against (ie. an escalation from away team that I did not respond in time during my PTO, c'mon!) meanwhile I have 10 or more valid scenarios which keep being overlooked.

Which is why the quality is dropping. Because as an engineer, I do not see any return on my investment (time & effort). There are thousands of engineers like me, I see more and more people are silent quitting (rest & vest), elevating minor things as if they were grand problems, increasing the bureaucracy as much as they can. As the layoffs already showed to all, there is no job guarantee at all!

scarface_74 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

You don’t see the problem with being a “four year L5”? That’s not to insult your skillset - just the nature of Amazon. There is a 99% probability that you are getting paid much less than new L5 hires.

Why are you still there?

woooooo 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your manager and skip probably barely understand what you do, and then can't sell it to the director. You get put on the bottom of the list and then the manager trawls their email for a weak-sauce justification.

Also, depending on your org you might be on a timer for L6, which sounds impossible given the situation. So... fair warning.

scarface_74 5 days ago | parent [-]

It’s up to him to advocate for himself and speak in terms of business value and knowing how to get a promo doc through.

I was 46-49 when I was in BigTech and way too old to care about the bullshit. But I helped a couple of interns I mentored there to get return offers as L4s and helped a couple of other L4s get to L5 and one L5 to get to L6.

But it’s almost always better to job hop than worry about an internal promotion. When you change jobs, you control the narrative. Incoming folks at Amazon almost always get better offers than people coming in.

One of the interns I mentored who came back as an L4 recently got promoted after three years and their comp package was the same as mine when I was hired there back in 2020 and is 20% less than new hires at her position.

AWS had an “anonymous” comp sharing internal Slack channel #pay-equity where you submitted your message to a Slack workflow that anonymized it before posting it. Of course the workflow admin knew about it.

woooooo 5 days ago | parent [-]

Meh, sure it's up to him but if his management chain isn't interested, then it's basically impossible.

Best to recognize the reality and plan accordingly

Signed, a guy who saw this happen to talented L5s like you.

scarface_74 5 days ago | parent [-]

The difference is at 46 when going in and on my 8th job, I had a plan and executed it.

My plan was always to stay four years for the initial offer, build a network of potential clients (I worked in AWS ProServe), use the comp to pay off debt and stack money (I sold my AMZN stock the moment it vested) and move on. While I was there I became the second highest contributor to a popular open source “AWS Solution” and published my own projects to the official AWS open source repository.

I also used the pivot from “enterprise dev” to “cloud consultant specializing in cloud native solutions” to stay permanently remote as I moved to my next company and relocate to state tax free Florida after COVID lifted.

I knew going in I didn’t have the stomach to put up with Amazon’s bullshit or BigTech in general. When GCP was recruiting for similar positions, I neither wanted to work for another large tech company and definitely didn’t want to be in an office.

On the other hand, I tell all younger people to do whatever it takes to get into a large public tech company and make as much money and get as many RSUs as they can.

uxcolumbo 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Great background and experience and you seem very driven and proactive.

That someone like you doesn’t get recognised or rewarded reeks of piss poor leadership.

And then the petty reason not to give a good performance score - your manager should have stood up for you, unless they were ignored as well.

What’s the allure of working at Amazon these days?

cebert 5 days ago | parent [-]

Amazon is still a great company to have on your resume and pays better than a lot of other tech employers.

dvdbloc 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can definitely relate. There is no correlation to work complexity and quality in performance reviews from what I’ve seen. It’s often how much you are selling something and your director happens to be buying…

master_crab 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Forte isn’t used to withhold comp. It’s just a development tool. That’s why it was always held in January after end of year comp. If your manager told you otherwise, they are being passive-aggressive about your prospects.

Second, if you’re a fifth year L5, start interviewing now. L5 technically is a terminal level (is that still a thing there?) but you aren’t supposed to spend five years at that level.

scarface_74 6 days ago | parent [-]

Ingenii (sp? I have been gone for two years) was where you put your accomplishments and goals. But Forte is (was?) where your management and peer feedback is managed.

master_crab 5 days ago | parent [-]

That sounds right. But there was a reason forte was always at the start of year after the end of year comps. So that it wasn’t factored into performance. It’s been a few years since I was at AWS but unless that changed, that’s a key reason why it was always meant to be a development tool. Not a comp tool.

scarface_74 5 days ago | parent [-]

Just the opposite, Forte was where your management and peer feedback was and where you found your award for your comp. It actually went down in 2021 during review time because of volume. I was in AWS ProServe and the joke was that maybe we should go multi cloud for resilliance.

master_crab 5 days ago | parent [-]

They must have changed it, because forte had zero comp related stuff in it when I was there. Purely a 360 process.