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adamm255 6 days ago

Time to decouple the UK Electricity price from Gas so we can actually reap the benefits of this as a consumer.

trebligdivad 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It effectively decouples for any period when no gas is needed; so if those batteries let you turn off the gas generators for an hour the price decouples from gas.

u02sgb 6 days ago | parent [-]

Think OP is taking about UK bills which are coupled too the cost of gas for historical reasons. Which needs to change in my view too.

tialaramex 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

They aren't per se coupled to gas. Here's roughly how it works:

We work in half hours, 48 of them per day. If you're a very large user (e.g maybe you're a factory which makes cars), or if you choose to do this at home, you can be metered in half hours and billed this way.

In advance of the half hour, we guess how much power we might need. 9pm here soon, I reckon 30GW per the British mainland. Now we run an auction. Everybody who can make power from 9pm to 9:30 bids, saying how much they'd accept to make power

Then, starting from the lowest bids, we add bidders up to 30GW of power, those people will make our 30GW of electricity, and we pay all of them the same price, that price is last bid needed to meet our 30GW goal.

This is often a closed cycle gas turbine because:

1. There are fucking shitloads of them. Probably 35GW nameplate, maybe 40GW, that is a lot of power generation. More than any other single type (Wind can deliver about 20GW to the grid, solar is smaller, nuclear is much smaller, storage also smaller even if you count it as generation which it technically is not)

2. They are (almost, maintenance is necessary) always willing to run, for a price. Rain or shine, night or day, if there is gas at any price they can charge that price plus a little profit to make it into electricity. Only question is if you'll pay

For a typical home tariff the "supplier" you're paying has guessed that on average they'll make a healthy profit if they charge you say 24p per kWh plus standing.

They pay that half-hourly price, if they guessed badly wrong and can't cover the difference they go bankrupt, which sucks for the government who are on the hook to ensure you still get electricity anyway.

So, the de-coupling would happen automatically if the current system stayed the same but you added a lot of cheap storage and enough wind power that on average the country was mostly wind powered. Or indeed nukes or solar if somehow this country built loads of nuke stations or got improbably sunnier.

trebligdivad 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Right - but if we start getting a useful amount of time when the grid doesn't need any gas, the amount of coupling should start to drop off.

SideburnsOfDoom 6 days ago | parent [-]

Solving the engineering challenges of "useful amount of time when the grid doesn't need any gas" without also digging into why the UK's energy pricing structure is such an outlier at the expense of consumers, seem a bit like one of those doomed attempts to solve a social issue by purely technical means.

ViewTrick1002 6 days ago | parent [-]

Pretty much all of europe runs on marginal cost electricity.

The UK was just extra stupid by banning nearly all construction of onshore wind.

SideburnsOfDoom 5 days ago | parent [-]

While that is a slightly different cause, "banning nearly all construction of onshore wind" was and is a social issue. It's culture and politics, not engineering.

ZeroGravitas 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The only sensible way to do this I've heard is to roll out more renewables faster and so burn less gas.

Is there some other plans you support?

SideburnsOfDoom 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

While this is worthwhile, I think that the parent post may be referring more to the "UK Electricity price" to consumers, and how this is calculated. It is related, but not quite the same as "roll out more renewables faster and so burn less gas"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/20/why-the-uks...

> "If we actually paid the average price of what our electricity now costs to produce, our bills would be substantially cheaper."

> In simple terms: the price in the electricity market on any given day is dictated by the most expensive source of generation available, which in the UK would be its gas-fired power plants.

I support "roll out more renewables faster" and pricing reform. Linked article makes it clear that the UK has "one of the most expensive electricity markets in the world" and this impacts consumers and businesses.

Which does raise the question: who benefits from the current pricing arrangement, and why do they have the deciding vote?

CorrectHorseBat 6 days ago | parent [-]

Is this not simply how markets work? Everything is sold at the marginal price.

You could change that, but it would just mean prices will be higher at another moment (in a perfect market), no?

SideburnsOfDoom 6 days ago | parent [-]

> Is this not simply how markets work?

The UK is an outlier as noted above. So no, this is not "simply how things work" in general. It's unusual.

> it would just mean prices will be higher at another moment, no?

No, see first quoted piece of text above.

My assumption also is that it's a far from perfect market - see last paragraph.

ZeroGravitas 6 days ago | parent [-]

The UK isn't an outlier in this regard. It's a fairly standard setup.

SideburnsOfDoom 6 days ago | parent [-]

So you disagree with the article above, which says "Britain continues to have one of the most expensive electricity markets in the world" ?

And "Britain paying highest electricity prices in the world"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/09/26/britain-burd..."

And "Why are Britain’s power prices the highest in the world?"

https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/q4-2024/why-are-brita...

And "UK energy bills highest in Europe and public patience is wearing thin"

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-energy-bills-highest-in-europe...

"highest" means an outlier, doesn't it?

OJFord 6 days ago | parent [-]

It being more expensive in Britain doesn't mean it doesn't work the same way (just come out with a lower price) elsewhere in the world.

From your electricinsights article:

> Most markets work in this way: Saudi Arabia’s oil is cheap to produce but gets a very similar price to higher-cost oil from the North Sea. The underlying economic principle is so widespread that it’s known as the Law of One Price.

SideburnsOfDoom 6 days ago | parent [-]

OK, I get it. The UK is an outlier in outcome, but not in process.

But I still think there's something very British in insisting "Why, it's all above board, we play by the same rules as everyone else of course. We just get a worse outcome than anyone else because, well ... um ... look over there! Immigrants!!" (I'm not paraphrasing you, rather the country as a whole)

British exceptionalism at its finest.

ZeroGravitas 5 days ago | parent [-]

If you want corruption it's much more up front. The Conservatives effectively banned onshore wind in England for a decade just after it became the cheapest source of electricity available.

Real Trump-level stupid and like Trump, the media seems to be actively diverting attention from it.

That and not installing insulation or mandating new homes to be better built cost the country billions and it got more costly when gas prices spiked.

The current govenrment can't shift costs from clean electricity to dirty gas, or to general taxation, because the media would crucify them. Meanwhile Farage is campaigning on getting rid of net zero and the NHS and they love him.

The same media starting a culture war about heat pumps at the moment. Basically if you assume the media and the political right are owned by gas and oil interests, the politics since North Sea discoveries make a lot more sense. It's like they were trying to burn as much of it as inefficiently as possible rather than use it wisely for its owners, the people.

skippyboxedhero 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Rolling out more renewables faster will mean more reliance on gas.

I am not sure how people still don't realise this after ten years of doing this and energy prices going up non-stop.

myrmidon 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

We did not start to push for renwable energy to get prices lower, this is mainly a mitigation against previously unaccounted-for externalities (CO2 emissions and air pollution).

Complaining about transition costs, to me, is like complaining that industrial waste disposal was cheaper back when we just dumped everything into the next river.

lostlogin 6 days ago | parent [-]

> industrial waste disposal was cheaper back when we just dumped everything into the next river.

This is still done. Thames Water.

nicoburns 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Only needing gas when the renewable energy isn't available seems strictly better than needing gas 24/7

rcxdude 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

At this point, there's not that much other non-renewable generation on the UK grid, so expanding renewables will reduce the impact of gas on prices (though it'll likely be non-linear).

spacebanana7 6 days ago | parent [-]

Gas complements renewables really well because gas can readily be tapped “on-demand” whilst renewables can only be tapped “on supply”.

It’s relatively easy to turn off gas when renewables are supplying energy to the grid at near zero cost marginal cost. But also easy to turn on gas when the renewables aren’t supplying energy, or when demand spikes in a manner uncorrelated to renewable generation.

Batteries are a more elegant solution long term, of course.

pydry 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Gas complements everything well. It's relatively cheap, easy to store power in large amounts and completely dispatchable. Nothing else can do all 3.

Batteries work well for short term day-to-day storage but they're impossibly expensive for seasonal storage which we will need a solution for for the last ~5-10% of decarbonization.

Probably the only way to fully decarbonize will eventually be to synthesize gas.

SoftTalker 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Gas can be used two ways: Gas in a conventional base-load steam turbine generator power plant is not easy to tap on demand. For peaking plants using gas turbine generators it is, but those are also less efficient.

ZeroGravitas 6 days ago | parent [-]

The article mentions at the same site they're building a gas plant using the same tech as a large ship engines, which is an attempt to hit a sweet spot for future usage as they have high efficiency at part load.

jacquesm 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That will never happen. They'll use that excuse until the very last gas powered plant is alive and then there will immediately be some other reason why energy prices have to stay the way they are.

octo888 6 days ago | parent [-]

Precisely this!

boredpudding 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does the UK not have an option for hourly-pricing? That's usually where as a consumer you can have the most gains. In the summer, with solar panels, my energy bill is negative (in The Netherlands)

0rdinal 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Some suppliers (e.g., Octopus Energy) offer half-hourly tariffs whose rates track the day-ahead wholesale market and are published daily. Prices usually fall when supply is abundant (e.g., windy/sunny periods)

Day ahead pricing: https://agileprices.co.uk/ National grid supply/demand and energy mix: https://grid.iamkate.com/

rcxdude 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, but the hourly price is still largely set by gas, because it's still a minority of the time where renewables are supplying 100% of the grid.

Havoc 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The UK has a stupid system where the pricing for everything is determined by the most expensive thing in the mix:

>The UK’s electricity market operates using a system known as “marginal pricing”. This means that all of the power plants running in each half-hour period are paid the same price, set by the final generator that has to switch on to meet demand, which is known as the “marginal” unit.

i.e. if you have 99 units of solar but have 100 demand, 1 unit of gas plant fires up to fill it then all 100 units are compensated at the gas rate even if the wind was cheap.

Kognito 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

We do, but I can’t imagine it’s hugely popular. Only a few of the smaller suppliers offer it AFAIK.

OJFord 6 days ago | parent [-]

Octopus is the largest UK energy supplier, and offers half-hourly billing ('Agile').

myrmidon 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You do realize that this is coupled with a 450MW gas power plant?

Gas is a really appealing backup option for both renewable and nuclear powered grids (at least in the absence of freely available hydropower).

But as installed power/capacity grows and batteries get cheaper, reliance on gas will hopefully decrease (and supply might get bolstered by renewable-powered synthgas within the next decades).

cjrp 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's more about the negative effect that using gas has on the wholesale price of energy; electricity prices are determined by the most expensive source at that point in time. So we either need to get gas usage to 0, or change how that wholesale price is calculated in order to see a consumer benefit.

stuaxo 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Its attached to the national grid, so surely it can also charge of the grid as needed too.