I get it. Time sheets are tedious and frankly, they suck.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating for time sheets. I'm advocating against overtime exemption.

Even so, all other things being equal, if the tedium of timesheets is on one side of the equation and all of the exploitation of unpaid labor is on the other, I'd still rather not be exploited. Working for free, which is what unpaid overtime is, is unsupportable.

There are many examples of non-exempt professionals who deal with this without resorting to spyware or coercion. IT support specialists, paralegals, and lab technicians all have systems that work: simple start/stop time logs or weekly attestations, plus manager pre-approval for overtime. No one is tracking keystrokes and no one is forced into surveillance. It's about accountability. You attest to your hours, managers approve exceptions, and overtime gets paid. That's the balance.

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theamk 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

you are making it sound there is an upside in timesheets, but there really is not.

In a current world, manager says: "We have great work-life balance, feel free to work as much or as little as you want! Also, here is an assignment, if this is not done by Friday I'll PIP you, then fire you and you'll get deported. Wink wink, you might want to work more."

In a timesheet world, a manager tells the employee: "Sorry, I cannot approve overtime for you, because I care about you! Also, here is an assignment, if this is not done by Friday I'll PIP you, then fire you and you'll get deported. So make sure you don't record more than 40 hours, but remember we don't really know how much you spend working (wink wink)"

This law might eliminate those insane AI startups which openly advertise 996 schedules, but most requirements of overtime are not that overt.

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kelseyfrog 3 days ago | parent [-]

Look, we can spin out any nightmare scenario, but the reality today is worse: unpaid overtime is the norm, and people in tech are burning out and even dying from overwork. That's not a hypothetical. It's our current world.

Timesheets arent fun, but they're not the end of the world either. Other skilled professions (IT support, paralegals, lab techs) use simple weekly logs or start/stop tracking without surveillance. They get paid for their overtime. We don't.

If the choice is between tedious record keeping or doing more work for the same pay, the latter is far more exploitative and soul crushing. We can fix the mechanics without ignoring the principle: work more, get paid more.

Honest question: is filling out a timesheet really worse, to you, than working extra hours for free?

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tstrimple 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm a salary employee who filled out three fucking separate time sheets last week. Doesn't matter how many hours I work. I have to send these stupid fucking timesheets in. Doesn't matter how many hours I work. I don't qualify for overtime.

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theamk 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Let me try to restate my argument:

If your boss is bad, you are still going to be working extra hours. Timesheets DO NOT PREVENT extra hours for computer programmers (unless there is also pervasive surveillance, like in the worst consulting shops).

Look, I've worked in a few places with timesheets before. In one place, there was a "no overtime" policy. All this means you always put 38 hours on your timesheets, no matter how much time you actually work. Worked 57 hours? Well, you put down 1 hour in your timesheet for every 1.5 hours actually working.

So I am sorry, but your idea is super naive. It's not going to work. It will make life worse, but will not provide benefits.

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kelseyfrog 3 days ago | parent [-]

If your boss is bad, they'll abuse power no matter the system. I don't disagree. But that's true in every field. So why do IT support, paralegals, and lab techs manage to make non-exempt status work without "pervasive surveillance"?

Help me connect the dots: how do you get from "I had a bad boss who broke the rules" to "therefore we should remove the legal framework that makes rule-breaking punishable"? Because without that framework, exploitation isn't just a possibility, it's legal.

That’s like saying "people will speed, so speed limits don’t work." Sure, some people speed, but the world without those limits and the legal weight behind them is objectively worse.

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close04 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Employee timesheets (salaries, not payed per hour) are never for the employee. They exist only to create a paper trail for the employer to use “as needed”. It will always say what the company or manager needs it to say.

I can’t imagine a scenario where the company creates an abusive OT environment but timesheets foil that.

Some employees will see these situations as an opportunity to show they go the extra mile. Some managers will be more than happy to allow it to reap the benefits. Everyone wins until one of them doesn’t, and that’s usually the overworked person.

P.S. In the speeding analogy the relationship between parties and the conflict of interest are very different. You’re not expected to speed to impress the police, and the police wants to catch you and make money from your mistake.

	▲	kelseyfrog 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		I get that timesheets can be gamed, but OT exemptions make wage theft legal by design. How do you square defending exemptions with opposing abuse?

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theamk a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Where did you get this from: "I had a bad boss who broke the rules"?

Bosses don't just say "you need to work 12 hours today". They say: "You need to get this done by Friday or I'll put you on PIP. Also, you are not authorized for the overtime on this project."

Did this boss break any rules? If yes, which ones? Because I don't see anything how your proposed law will make it this better.

And that should also explain what's special about software engineering:

IT support people get scheduled by an hour, and it's easy to see how much they worked. Boss cannot say "work for 10am to 10pm", _that_ would be clear and obvious rule breaking any judge will understand. And vehicle speed is very simple and unambiguous, so the rules are very simple (even if they are not enforced much).

Software engineers get tasks assigned, and no one can tell how long the task will take - Is "Fix bug 12345 by Friday" a reasonable request or not? Was this engineer put on PIP because they refused to do overtime, or was this because they were genuinely not a good fit for the position? No one can tell.

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whatevaa 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Fuck timesheets. Any creative work doesn't just click on/off at moments notice, nor can you actually sustain 8h focus long term. It's not like physical work where you know exactly when you started and finished.

Don't try to apply rules from one area into another without considering that areas nuances.