> the world needs welders and AC technicians and Practical Nurses much more than we need more software engineers working at a Silicon Valley startup.

The world needs software engineers too. Silicon Valley isn't the world. Not to mention, you know... it's not just programmers that come out of universities.

Anyway, trades are "looked down" on like that because they're a lot of very hard, very physical work. I would certainly encourage my children to go to university if it's going to lead to a much more comfortable life.

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tombert 2 days ago | parent [-]

For the record, I have a bachelors and a masters in computer science and while I didn't finish I did attend a PhD program. I'm not trying to dog on universities as a concept.

That said, I think universities aren't a good fit for a lot of people. A lot of people (and I include my brother-in-law in this group) would not be happy with a desk job, and while I think he's pretty smart I don't know that he would do well having to attend four years of a university. I think trade schools are excellent for these kinds of people.

I don't have children, but I would like to think that if I did I would try and help them get a career they would be happy with, and "comfortable" doesn't necessarily imply that.

I prefer to have a desk job, I like writing software, it's why I spend too much time on HN, but I think a lot of people would benefit from a trade school, and I don't think they should be stigmatized.

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antonymoose 2 days ago | parent [-]

I would second this largely, I’m the son of a plumber / handyman / GC. I’ve spent my childhood on service calls and job sites since the age of 5, spent my teenage summers schlepping tools and driving lightning rods, you name it, I’ve done it. I wouldn’t trade my near 20 year software career for the trades, I don’t think.

However, the biggest thing I think the HN crowd might appreciate that they have and we lack is an easy path to freedom through self employment - if you want self-employment as a programmer you need the fortune of a novel idea, improvement, or something new in some sense. You might need to also chase the VC dragon.

You want to start a plumbing business? Work hard 5-10 years, get out on your own with a van and tools and you have a turn key business idea. Provide good service at a proper rate. End of story.

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creer 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> we lack is an easy path to freedom through self employment - if you want self-employment as a programmer you need the fortune of a novel idea [etc]

See the many software and other computing people who successfully run under a consultant / contractor model. You can absolutely be self employed. Good service at a proper rate (and pretty high too, usually.) Self employed and high percentage remote if you want it.

	▲	antonymoose 7 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I would argue it is far more nebulous a process to become a software contractor and far stiffer national or global competition for the contracts. Whereas a tradesman is more naturally limited in their local competition and the work fare more obvious and standard. Service work, new build installations. It’s almost as if the trade itself conveys a kind of franchise like quality to it.

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squigz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You want to start a plumbing business? Work hard 5-10 years, get out on your own with a van and tools and you have a turn key business idea. Provide good service at a proper rate. End of story.

This strikes me as underselling the hurdles here. Ignoring the whole "just start a self-sufficient business" thing, what happens when you get sick? What about medical costs as you age? Retirement plans?

	▲	cpursley 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Huh? You purchase insurance and invest into retirement funds.

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tombert 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean it's not too hard for software people to start contracting businesses. I've done private contracting in the past between W2 jobs, and I've debated trying to do it full time.

All it took was an internet connection and a decent laptop.

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antonymoose 2 days ago | parent [-]

I’ve tried, it’s far harder to find and succeed in a global marketplace. While I do live in a metro, it’s a small one that cannot sustain an income close to my day job.

If you’re a tradesmen you’re never going to compete with Eastern Europe, LATAM, India, or anywhere global.

	▲	tombert 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		That's true; my private contracting has always been done via connections. I reach out to coworkers from previous jobs and ask if they need any work, and sometimes they do. Cold-calling to get work would definitely be harder because you definitely are competing with much cheaper labor.