| ▲ | pjmlp 5 days ago |
| The fallacy is that AOSP (which GrapheneOS forks from), and Chromium used to install it, are both dependendent on Google engineers, money, and the willigness to keep the platforms open, to some extent. |
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| ▲ | neodymiumphish 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Is your alternative that someone should build a complete from-scratch alternative OS that can still be booted on the same hardware? For the time being, AOSP and Chromium are still open source, so why not piggy-back off of all that labor and development to provide what GrapheneOS users want at minimal cost and effort? |
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| ▲ | msgodel 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Desktop Linux works very nicely on smartphones actually provided all the drivers are there. I lived with a PinePhone running FVWM on Xorg for a couple years and if the hardware didn't crumble away I'd still be using it today. No need to "build a complete from-scratch alternative OS" when that was already done 30 years ago. | | |
| ▲ | nolist_policy 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Did you actually use it as a phone? | | |
| ▲ | msgodel 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes although mostly over VOIP. Voice calls aren't actually very complex though of you prefer using those directly. |
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| ▲ | 42lux 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sailfish is alright. | | |
| ▲ | pdimitar 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Do you have experience daily-driving it? Any prominent negatives? | | |
| ▲ | 42lux 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I use it on an XA2, which is a bit of an older phone, but even there it runs fine. Sometimes the Android apps slow down and you have to relaunch the application layer, but that's just one click and takes about 5 seconds. That said, most Android apps run fine. All the enterprise stuff works great (Okta, MS Authenticator, Exchange etc.). Native Apps are a bit hit and miss but development is rather easy. I'd say the biggest pain point is that Google Maps doesn't work because of the lack of Google Play Services. The missing Maps/Play Services also breaks apps that rely on the maps API. Most of them just fall back to not showing a map at all while the rest of the app functions normally, but it's still an inconvenience. For turn by turn navigation I switched to HERE Maps which works without problems. | |
| ▲ | tpoacher 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | i used to have a jolla and loved my sailfish phone ... until the phone died and i could fix it ... sailfish itself was great though. admittedly the android compatibility layer really helped though |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | If the goal is to be fully free from backdoors and development being cutted out at any time, yes. | | |
| ▲ | neodymiumphish 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If the source is fully open (it is) than detecting and disabling backdoors is completely possible. Not to mention the fact that other OS projects face the same risks. If Google cuts development of AOSP in favor of some closed-source alternative, the GrapheneOS team could simply continue development of AOSP on their own. | | |
| ▲ | wolvesechoes 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > If the source is fully open (it is) than detecting and disabling backdoors is completely possible There exists a possible world where a group of underpaid FOSS devs forked Chromium and AOSP and effectively developed it further. But it is not our world. > the GrapheneOS team could simply continue development of AOSP on their own. They won't be able to do so. | | |
| ▲ | neodymiumphish 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Which makes the idea that a group like them could build their own OS from scratch all the more unattainable... That's the point I'm trying to make. At least if Google ever drops AOSP, it would be when it's still an intact OS available to continue development on. Additionally, I suspect a group like Graphene could get a lot more support developing AOSP's replacement in that instance, considering how many other manufacturers and devices utilize AOSP-derived software. | |
| ▲ | phendrenad2 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What makes AOSP so much more complex than open-source frameworks like Gtk and KDE? Or even partially-funded software like Gnome? |
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| ▲ | twelvedogs 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Graphene relies on a lot of closed source driver code I would imagine |
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| ▲ | mindslight 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you define the goal that way, then you actually need to clear a much higher bar of making your own hardware. Personally I'd much rather maintain a long term fork of AOSP than have to design, market, sell, and support a new device. |
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| ▲ | gradientsrneat 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A fallacy which the author acknowledges. > "I guess the best way to degoogle right now is to buy from Google" Google has a monopoly on sort-of-open-but-not-really smartphones. And interoperability on ARM desktop isn't looking pretty either. |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This looks the same kind of situation when I noticed FOSDEM corridors started to be full of Apple laptops, but apparently the irony is lost on new generations. | | |
| ▲ | hungmung 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I remember about 10 or 15 years ago somebody pointed out that a big chunk of the GNOME devs used Apple laptops, even at public appearances, and it answered a lot of my questions about the state of the project. (and I say this as a user of GNOME) | | |
| ▲ | estimator7292 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I think that perfectly explains why GNOME is the way it is. Funny enough, that's also why Windows is in the state it's in. Funny how that works. |
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| ▲ | jajuuka 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They really don't. It's just that development of custom roms like GrapheneOS are centered around Pixels. Plenty of other devices have unlockable bootloaders. The custom rom scene though is so small that concentrating on a couple devices is the only way to keep development moving forward though. Same reason why Asahi Linux is the only option on Apple Silicon Macs. | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Many have unlockable bootloaders (though the number is rapidly declining with Samsung closing up). But not many have relockable bootloaders. This is one of the things that grapheneos have set as a minimum standard, hence the reliance on pixels. There's a few other specific things that the titan chip provides which they rely on but the relocking is the main thing. | | |
| ▲ | ycombinatrix 4 days ago | parent [-] | | To be more specific - relockable with a custom AVB key. I think most devices can relock with the default Google AVB key. | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Well they can but not with custom firmware installed. As grapheneos is custom firmware, the google key makes no sense in this context. |
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| ▲ | subscribed 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "unlockable bootloader" is the requirement to flash anyone alternative on the phone, yes, but the GrapheneOS you mentioned will support _any_ device that is "flashable" and secure enough: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices Currently it's only Pixels from 8 up. Other alternative firmware projects don't seem to be too concerned about security (eg they don't support relocking bootloader, don't support secure boot, don't release patches for months), so they're not really in the same ballpark ALTHOUGH I agree that they still might be better option than stock OS on the device abandoned by the vendor. |
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| ▲ | subscribed 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's simply no choice with hardware now if someone wants it to meet some secure baseline. No other vendor makes secure android hardware. |
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| ▲ | phendrenad2 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Nah I consider that a fallacy. I'll call it the fallacy of the oranges. Let's say I control all of the orange trees in town. People resell my oranges. I begin using really strong insecticide that resellers try their best to wash off. I keep upping the strength and they keep trying to remove it. At the same time, there is one banana tree in town, and conveniently for my analogy, no pesticides are needed for bananas. As oranges continue to become worse, people will keep eating them, and saying that "there's no way people can switch to bananas. If they could, they would have already. And besides, there's only one tree..." Yes but these things can change. And eventually, people will switch to bananas en masse. People will truck in bananas. And we'll all act like we predicted the great banana switch the whole time. Like MySpace to Facebook, or Digg to Reddit. Or GSuite to Outlook. Or Skype to Zoom. |