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vkou a day ago

It's a crying shame that given the choice, the voters picked the modern-day equivalent of Lysenkoism[1].

[1] Which due to the timing of its adoption and abandonment did avoid outright causing famines in the Soviet Union... And went on to kill tens of millions of people in China.

voidfunc a day ago | parent | next [-]

The inability for intelligent people to frame their policies and positions in ways very stupid simple people can understand is the biggest failing of the last 50+ years if not longer.

allturtles 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think people have gotten stupider or leaders have gotten worse at justifying their policies. IMO what is happening here is a consequence of a catastrophic loss of trust in elites and institutions.

ultrarunner 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm tempted to agree, but I can't shake the question: …Manifested as blind trust in an elite and their institutions?

const_cast 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I disagree, Trump is about as elite as elites come. And the Republicans are hardly underdogs - they're long standing incumbents in many ways.

What's happening is that the Republicans have captured populist messaging pretty well, the Democrats just haven't.

Populism is usually stupid but it's extremely effective if you can flood information stream, particularly new ones. I mean, Radio pretty much made Hitler.

The timing here is perfect. Internet has just become mainstream and is still trusted and our brains haven't developed patterns of discernment. In addition, the economy for every day working people is bad. Its the perfect breeding ground for populism.

mankyd a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> in ways very stupid simple people can understand

The problem is rarely the ability to understand. It is the ability (or desire) to listen that many lack.

voidfunc a day ago | parent [-]

These people have no trouble listening. They're deeply into people like Rogan, Trump, their pastor, RFK etc. and eat up their every word.

SantalBlush a day ago | parent [-]

They will listen to anyone who tells them what they like to hear. They will not listen to anyone who tells them what they don't like to hear. They shop around for truths they prefer like they're items at Costco.

voidfunc a day ago | parent [-]

Somewhere along the line they had to develop preferences which indicates some level of listening.

abracadaniel a day ago | parent [-]

People’s preferences tend very strongly toward whatever requires the least action on their part. If the problem is with someone else, then you never have to be part of the solution

kelipso 19 hours ago | parent [-]

It’s political preferences, not laziness. People aren’t listening to Rogan or whoever and ignoring the CDC because of laziness. They are doing that because they follow what their social and/or political community thinks and does.

Feels like this whole thread is trying to pin this on individual preferences or whatever. But it’s a social effect, and individual personalities or intelligence have very little to do with it. If you lived in these communities, unless you are neurodivergent, you would be doing the same thing.

SantalBlush 14 hours ago | parent [-]

>If you lived in these communities, unless you are neurodivergent, you would be doing the same thing.

As someone who grew up in one of these communities, this has not been my experience. Many, many people move away, and for varied reasons. What you're left with are people who stay in economically declining areas and want to blame everyone else for it. It's selection bias, and it is absolutely based on personal choice.

Gigachad a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem seems to be that Americans are willing to suffer a lot of personal loss as long as they can ensure someone else suffers even more.

Esophagus4 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There’s a similar joke about Russians:

A genie says to a Russian, “I will grant you one wish.”

The Russian says, “I want a million dollars.”

The genie says, “… but whatever I give you, I will give your neighbor two of.”

The Russian responds, “Well in that case, I want a poke in the eye!”

anigbrowl 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Humans display a reduced set of consistent behavioral phenotypes in dyadic games https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451

anigbrowl 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Disagree, I think they've done a moderately good job of it. The problem is that you have other intelligent but cynical people who are prepared to invest fortunes in convincing stupid people to believe things that actively undermine their interests. Long before 4chan and social media came along, you had tabloid newspapers, radio stations, and publishers whose sole goal was to dumb people down by appealing to paranoia, selfishness, and vapidity.

yongjik a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The inability for intelligent people to frame their policies and positions in ways very stupid simple people can understand

"disease very bad. disease may kill. inject this. you less likely to get disease."

=> "How dare you infringe upon my bodily freedom!"

Realistically, how farther down can we dumb things from here?

michaelmrose a day ago | parent | next [-]

You can't people that stupid shouldn't actually get a vote in the matter.

itsanaccount a day ago | parent [-]

and when you get to this point, you show your true colors and the dumbest, meanest animal is still gonna recognize your nature.

you have to respect people, you have to care about their agency even to their detriment or else who are you saving?

CamperBob2 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

or else who are you saving?

Civilization.

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
jiggawatts a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> "disease very bad. disease may kill. inject this. you less likely to get disease."

The actual argument is that by everyone getting injected, society as a whole crosses a threshold where viruses fail to spread exponentially and don't cause pandemics.

It's a more nuanced, more complex reason that some (incredibly selfish) people are just unable to grasp.

"Why would I ever a tiny personal risk to stop other people getting sick!?" was a very common argument during the COVID pandemic.

senectus1 a day ago | parent [-]

>"Why would I ever a tiny personal risk to stop other people getting sick!?" was a very common argument during the COVID pandemic.

its a very american take, but unfortunately that particular mind virus has spread very far and wide

o11c a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At this point, I don't think it's an inability - all sorts of messages get broadcast - but an unwillingness to actually talk to people with different worldviews.

The easy way to spread a pro-health message to the people who really need to comply with it is to say "letting disease spread is Nergal worship (2 Kings 17:30), and America is a Christian nation." Just spam that, nonstop, until it is as embedded in their minds as whatever derangement Trump has come up with this time - because this is the kind of thing they respond to.

The second thing is more complicated: to admit that a lot of "sexual health" only applies to people engaging in highly risky behavior, and should be handled separately both in messaging and in practice from general health. You can still make them support it, but with an explicit "do good even to the sinner" messaging. Throw in a few "We are currently promoting abortion because free school lunches have been canceled" and you WILL see movement.

Both of these are considered abominable among the current Democrat party, because it involves speaking the language of people with different values.

vkou a day ago | parent | next [-]

Why would they listen to nonsense that makes them uncomfortable, as opposed to their expressed preference of listening to nonsense that makes them comfortable?

It doesn't matter how much you cite Matthew 19:24 to someone who already had their brain rotted by, say, prosperity gospel. They don't give a shit.

ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-]

Yep. They’ll even rewrite the Bible to take out the bits they don’t like.

https://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project

o11c 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I am 99% sure that's entirely satire, seeing as there are no external references/users thereto.

ceejayoz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It was very much a thing for a while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservapedia#Conservative_Bib...

It met a good amount of backlash, though.

selimthegrim 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You must’ve not hung out among Louisiana Democrats lately

yahway a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hypocrisy at its finest.

michellegarb0 15 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

michaelmrose a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is odd to see someone in a society which worships willful ignorance and aggressive stupidy advance the position that somehow the smart people are responsible for not having figured a way to force the morons to a position that they have no intention of occupying.

They believe that the set of values and beliefs that they hold true or false advantage them and perceive education as an attack on their values. Most if them are happy to degrade and diminish anyone who tries some are willing to murder.

krapp a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the bigger failing in that regard is the educational system. There shouldn't be this many stupid people, and they shouldn't be this stupid.

acdha a day ago | parent [-]

It’s a big mistake to thing of people as stupid: they’d be far less dangerous if they actually were.

The problem isn’t lack of intelligence but the information space they inhabit and the feeling that they have somehow been mistreated. There’s an entire genre of “why are leopards eating my face?” schadenfreude posts about MAGAs asking why Trump is doing some “surprising” thing he said he was going to do for years. Because they’re _not_ stupid, once they’ve thrown in with a side they’ll put a lot of effort into coming up with rationalizations or attacks to try to “balance” things out. The bitter grievances are really powerful because they let people talk themselves into seeing things as necessary sacrifices: sure, you’re losing Medicaid and paying more in taxes but the alternative is living in a world where Riley Gaines was forced to tie for fifth so I guess you just have to tighten your belt on behalf of female athletes.

krapp a day ago | parent [-]

With all due respect, what you're describing is still stupidity. 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds' as Emerson said.

The people who voted for Trump (or against Biden) because they hadn't been paying attention over the last decade and just thought the price of eggs was too high were stupid. The people who knew exactly what Trump was about and just didn't think the leopards would eat their faces were stupid. The people who voted because they just wanted to be entertained watching the world burn were stupid.

There's more than one kind of stupidity, and when they combine en masse into a big dumb avalanche it can absolutely be dangerous.

acdha 21 hours ago | parent [-]

Fair, I guess my point was not to underestimate your opponents: assume that they’re just as smart and motivated but are using their talents based on the Fox News cinematic universe / Christian nationalism.

I live in DC so right now a lot of my neighbors are having surreal conversations with their extended family members who are saying things which would make sense if you started with certain false pretenses like all of the police statistics being faked. One of them was telling me about how they were talking with someone who had an Ivy degree, serious job, etc. but wouldn’t believe that our downtown wasn’t a movie gangland even though his own relative was telling him they take young kids in those area all the time and never see anything more unsafe than an out of control toddler on a bike. They kept coming up with complicated “maybe you missed” theories because they couldn’t bear to question that one starting premise. If you want to call that stupid, sure, but I think we might want a different term it.

SantalBlush a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Personal responsibility applies to improving and maintaining one's own intellect, and not relying on others to do it.

morkalork a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>frame their policies and positions in ways very stupid simple people can understand

This doesn't matter when the intelligent people are working within the confines of reality and their opposition lies gratuitously. The stupid people are choosing the option they want to believe and apparently no amount of education or framing is going to change that.

koonsolo 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with cults, beliefs, fears, Russian disinformation campaigns, political alignment, etc.

I've seen intelligent people fall for crazy conspiracy theories. Once all those antivaxers became pro-Russia, which basically has nothing to do with each other, it became clear were all this disinformation was coming from (talking mainly about Central Europe here, but I'm sure it applies to US too)

CamperBob2 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Once all those antivaxers became pro-Russia, which basically has nothing to do with each other

Not necessarily the case, as Russia has a longstanding record of propagating public-health misinformation. See https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39419560 for instance.

This has been a part of their national agenda since the Communist revolution. "If we can't improve our own country, at least we can fuck up everybody else's."

michellegarb0 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

martythemaniak a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, nothing Trump has done has been particular surprising, but the enthusiasm with which huge portions of America have welcomed or shrugged at his insa has been the real shocker.

estearum a day ago | parent [-]

IMO there's a small (very) enthusiastic portion of America, then a much larger portion that simply didn't like inflation and would've voted any incumbent out of power. Very poor timing that has already caused generational damage, at least.

jfengel 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Inflation in November 2024 was 2.7%. That's higher than the Fed target, but hardly "throw out the incumbent at all costs". I know that "inflation" is what they told pollsters, but I have a hard time believing that. Maybe some of it; not all of it, or the biggest part of it.

As to what it actually was... that's less clear to me. I'm sure it was a multiplicity of factors, some of which reflect poorly on us as Americans. (All of us.) I think we accept the "inflation" explanation because it's easier than confronting those.

estearum 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Incumbents (left- and right-wing alike) lost power in almost every election in the world in 2023 and 2024, and the overwhelming majority of voters said the economy was their number one issue.

immibis 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This speaks to the gap between what economists measure and what the public sees.

Here's a more on-the-ground perspective: The price of food went up 50% during COVID, and you caused it since you were in power. You will make it go back down to how it was before, or I will vote for someone else.

(The average voter runs on simpler emotions like this and does not take into account that Trump will most likely cause much more inflation, which is what he has done)

estearum 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Spot on IMO

immibis 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The latest USA inflation measurement was 11% per year (0.9% per month) PPI in July 2025.

etchalon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We are not a smart country.

estearum a day ago | parent [-]

Eh, it's common knowledge that "the masses" are vulnerable to demagoguery. The elites who absolutely do know better hold far more blame –– many of them still well-regarded on this very forum!

hyperliner a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

ants_everywhere a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of the many parallels of this administration with communism

dralley a day ago | parent | next [-]

MAGA Maoism

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/04/08/maga-maoi...

morkalork a day ago | parent [-]

And this was written before the USA took a 10% stake in Intel, turning it into a Chinese style state-owned enterprise!

CompoundEyes a day ago | parent [-]

Now they can demand that Intel investigate internal “waste fraud and abuse” since it’s partially owned by the government. It goes from “the government should run more like a business” to the government telling businesses “run more like the government running more like a business”

CamperBob2 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

No kidding. Can you imagine how conservatives would have reacted if the banners going up around DC[1] had Obama's face on them?

1: https://bsky.app/profile/donmoyn.bsky.social/post/3lxfamzutk...

ajross a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It's a crying shame that given the choice, the voters picked the modern-day equivalent of Lysenkoism[1].

Those voters (who needless to say had never heard of Lysenko) were told by trusted, well-spoken, authoritative, legitimate seeming sources that this was a mainstream position and a very reasonable one. The people who needed to say it was bullshit were deliberately excluded.

And yeah, that applies specifically to Fox News and Facebook, but also to Rogan and the manosphere, and to 4chan.

And to HN, quite frankly. If you want to know why people turned away from science just go back and watch the discourse around late COVID or whatever. And note how it was utterly dominated by the loons in throwaway accounts. Some of us tried fighting back and ended up incessantly flagged and rate-limited, so we gave up. "Reasonable" HN posters fled the field in favor of bland tech discussion (or retreated in the face of "moderation"), and someone looking at the issue without context might assume that the modern Lysenkos must have had a point.

protocolture a day ago | parent [-]

Modern social media teaches you to either engage if the topic gives you happy brain feels, or disengage completely so it never shows up in your feed. The more you "fight" a cause, the more you promote it and the more you see it.

ajross a day ago | parent [-]

FWIW HN doesn't have personalized feeds like that. We all see the same front page. But regardless:

The loons loved it indeed, and it was all over the front page. Right here. Blaming that on the rest of us seems ridiculous, but sort of besides the point. I don't care about blame, I'm saying that whoever you want to blame, it is us, right here, on HN, not some abstract "voters". We made this problem. We told people that masks didn't work and vaccines were poison. If not you and I personally, people writing prose in proxy for us did.

On balance, Hacker News stood solidly on the side of RFK2 and against the CDC in this particular war. It just did.

krapp a day ago | parent [-]

I think you're overestimating how influential Hacker News is on the discourse of society at large.

Many people here were (and still are) solidly anti-vaccine but in the grand scheme Hacker News was just one of innumerable maelstroms on the internet, and far from the biggest. More realistically, Hacker news is just full of people who aren't any more immune to propaganda than anyone else.

ajross a day ago | parent [-]

I'm not blaming HN specifically or especially, I'm saying that tut tutting about all those dumb "voters" and "Lysenkoists" is shortsighted. The problem is right here. If you want to know why "they" were so dumb you only need to answer why WE were equally dumb.

My general sense is that the tut-tut set is very much an overlap in the Venn diagram with the libertarians who deliberately enabled this nonsense originally and refuse to treat with their own complicity.

But I've spent most of my limited budget on posting about this, so I'll stop now.

Terr_ a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the modern-day equivalent of Lysenkoism

Another communist parallel: MAGA is aimed in the general direction of a Great Leap Forward [0] to screw over the American economy and industry with incompetent autarky, and also a Cultural Revolution [1] for persecuting "woke elites" (subject-matter experts) leading to international brain-drain.

I really hope the American people can put the brakes on that, because it took China decades to recover.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

hyperliner a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

Woodi 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sorry, but thats what USians choose and looks Trump was better alternative then Lady-do-nothing-California.

And you literaly insult peoples that actually lived in Warsaw Pact, check your body count numbers.