| ▲ | voidUpdate 5 days ago |
| According to wikipedia, the entire cost of the saturn v project was US$185 million, equivalent to US$33.6 billion today. That's from R&D to all launches |
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| ▲ | ralfd 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| You mis-copied the numbers for one launch. Wiki says: > Project cost US$6.417 billion (equivalent to $33.6 billion in 2023) > Cost per launch US$185 million (equivalent to $969 million in 2023) That a manned Apollo mission would/did cost under a billion dollars (todays money) is surprisingly cheap. A single Artemis launch using the Space Launch System (SLS) costs an eye watering $4 billions. Different metric: > [1966] NASA received its largest total budget of $4.5 billion, about 0.5 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP) of the United States at that time. Using that metric NASA yearly budget would with todays GDP be $150 billion dollars. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Part of the SLS cost comes from trying to save money. Yearly budgets are kept low, which spreads out the work over a long time. This makes everything cost more, but the politicians only care about the yearly spending. SLS is also a pretty weird design due to reusing Shuttle components for a completely different kind of launcher. This saves development costs (maybe) by using existing stuff that has already been developed, but the unsuitability of those components for this system increases per-launch costs. Once NASA runs out of old Shuttle engines, manufacturing new ones is going to cost $100 million apiece if not more, and each launch needs four of them. It was OK for Shuttle engines to be expensive since they were supposed to be amortized over hundreds of flights (and in practice were actually amortized across at least tens of flights) but now they’re being used in expendable launches. If Starship even comes remotely close to its goals, an entire launch will cost less than a single SLS engine. | | |
| ▲ | thesmart 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I had understood that reusing shuttle parts was more about keeping congressional districts (that make the parts) happy, and thus securing votes for funding. | |
| ▲ | jiggawatts 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "We're going to spend more to save money." is something I've heard said almost verbatim far too many times in government projects. |
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| ▲ | mikepurvis 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Some of this was the overall urgency of the 1960s space race, that people were motivated to cut through red tape and get it done, and I know it's also argued that modern safety standards and requirements around supply chain, real time monitoring, system redundancy, etc all complicate things and raise costs. That said, it would be interesting to have someone really knowledgeable go over what it is that Artemis has and Saturn V didn't, and then break them down and assign each an approximate proportion of the cost delta. | |
| ▲ | nashashmi 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In recent years, NASA’s budget has hovered around $25–27 billion. This represents less than 0.5% of the total U.S. federal budget, though it’s one of the most visible and impactful science agencies | |
| ▲ | voidUpdate 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | facepalm not sure how I misread that |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yes, I also can look trivial stuff up. That would include costs after the rocket first orbited the Earth, so it doesn't answer my question. |
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| ▲ | anonymars 5 days ago | parent [-] | | No need to be condescending when communication is ambiguous. Your question can be better phrased as, "How much did it cost for Saturn V to reach the point where it could successfully orbit?" which I assume means "how much did it cost up to and including Apollo 4?" | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Wouldn't the cost of all of Mercury and Gemini missions need to be included in this as they could not have Apollo without the others first. | | |
| ▲ | terminalshort 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | And then we also need to add the costs of the V2, because surely we wouldn't have had Mercury and Gemini without the V2 first... and of course we wouldn't have that if the Chinese hadn't developed the first rockets in the 13th century, so we need to figure out their development costs. Where does it stop? | |
| ▲ | thesmart 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So you think SpaceX isn't building on the shoulders of giants? There are teams of incredible engineers working there because NASA paved the way. | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those weren't on the Saturn V, though. They were various rockets for Mercury, and Titan II for Gemini. | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Do you think they would/could have built the Saturn V without building the other engines first? | | |
| ▲ | anonymars 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think as phrased this is going to get way too pedantic. But I think it raises a larger point which is worthy to consider. Presumably what we're trying to get at is, in broad strokes, "is Starship more cost-effective to develop than Saturn V" (and I assume the follow-on for that will be to compare the "NASA approach" vs the "SpaceX approach") But you raise a good point in that the baseline playing field is completely different. The existing knowledge each program started with, be it in materials science, understanding of rocket combustion, heat shield technology, electronics, simulation ability, you name it, it's completely different. So we can find and pull out whatever numbers, but I don't think it's possible for them to say anything meaningful for comparison on their own. | | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent [-] | | >but I don't think it's possible for them to say anything meaningful for comparison on their own. It depends on how different they are. Saturn V was launched 13 times in total. Starship is already 75% of the way there and hasn't orbited once. Ignoring R&D and just going by launch costs alone, that's USD 4B (2025) to orbit 1 Saturn V, vs USD x to orbit 1 Starship, where x >= 1B. | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Saturn V was launched 13 times in total. Starship is already 75% of the way there Apollo 1 - lost on the launch pad, crew killed. very bad
Apollo 13 - major malfunction causing loss of mission but crew saved. very not bad Starship - 10 launches 5 failures. No crew ever so that pressure is also not comparable. Are we really claiming Starship has achieved 75% of the results of Apollo? That's absolutely ludicrous | | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Starship is 75% of the way to 13 launches. That's just mathematically correct. | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 5 days ago | parent [-] | | And is absolutely useless. Apollo 9-17 went to the moon with human occupants. All but one put men on the surface of the moon. They all returned to Earth with zero fatally exploding ships. Not one of these triumphant 75% achievement in launch numbers would have had a surviving human. Apollo had 0 practice runs. Starship is nothing but practice runs. To equate the number of launches to something so drastically different is just an exercise in futility that I can only assume you're trolling | | |
| ▲ | anonymars 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Starship is already 75% of the way there and hasn't orbited once Read it as "Starship is already 75% of the way to that cost and hasn't orbited once" (you seem to be in agreement) | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Dude, when did I say they were triumphant? SpaceX is burning taxpayer money sending empty coke cans on ballistic trajectories for no good reason. My whole point with this line of inquiry has been to point out what a useless waste of resources Starship has been so far. |
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| ▲ | terminalshort 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But who will get to 100 launches first? 1000? Saturn V was in one way a great success that will be remembered for all of history. But in another it was a failure due to your exact statement. It only launched 13 times due to being so expensive as to just not be feasible. | | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Neither will. >It only launched 13 times due to being so expensive as to just not be feasible. "There aren't many uses for such a gigantic rocket. Let's make an even bigger one and hope it works out!" | | |
| ▲ | terminalshort 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Actually, "let's build a cheaper one and hope it works out" is the design philosophy here, and it's a very effective one across pretty much all domains. The fact that it's bigger too is mostly incidental to its economic case. You think we would have stopped at Apollo 17 if the same Saturn V was capable of flying Apollo 18 - 30? | | |
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| ▲ | Sparyjerry 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Starship has already reached orbit many times but places itself on a suborbital trajectory to intentionally test re-entry and landing which it has done successfully several times. | | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Wrong. Starship has yet to orbit the planet. Certainly not "many" times, considering this is only its tenth flight. | | |
| ▲ | Sparyjerry 4 days ago | parent [-] | | They've already demonstrated they can orbit, they just choose not to. Reaching orbit and orbiting the planet are two different things. Saying that that is not reaching orbit is like saying McDonalds is failing at serving breakfast all day because they chose not to serve breakfast after 11:00 to meet their goals. | | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >Reaching orbit and orbiting the planet are two different things. LOL. Are you serious? To reach orbit: to reach a horizontal speed such that the spacecraft can complete a revolution around the celestial object while in free fall, without having to execute any additional maneuvers. Starship has yet to reach orbit. The reason doesn't matter. It hasn't done it. |
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| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | If we're going down this road, we'd have to include the global GDP back thousands of years. I asked specifically about Saturn V so I could make a reasonable comparison between it and Starship. | | |
| ▲ | terminalshort 5 days ago | parent [-] | | What about the costs paid by the Song dynasty to develop rockets in the 13th century! | | |
| ▲ | fluoridation 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Never mind that. Remember that Grug had to die from eating poisonous mushrooms for the first time, all so we could have disposable plastic forks. |
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