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rkagerer 2 days ago

...importers must declare the exact amount of steel, copper, and aluminum in products, with a 100% tariff applied to these materials

I ordered a lock and some keys valued at about $400, and paid an extra $400 in duties because of this. It's insane.

kacesensitive 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Wait consumers are paying the tariffs??

jrochkind1 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Whoever imports pays the tarriff. If you order something over the internet from someone not in the US, that's the consumer.

There is a lot more direct consumer ordering from international vendors now than there was 20 years ago of course, for obvious reasons.

Note Aug 29th is also the end of the "de minimus" rules for import duties, where a shipment worth less than $800 was exempt from import taxes and duties. Some tariffs and other import taxes have always existed, but that's why you rarely saw them when ordering consumer goods internationally to the USA, if it was worth less than $800 they were skipped. That's going away, you'll be paying import taxes on every international shipment you order directly as a consumer, even if it's a $25 t-shirt -- exactly how you pay these, at what point they are calculated by who (even how to calculate them?), and who invoices you how and when as a consumer -- well that's what nobody including international shippers have figured out yet, which is what the OP is saying means they can't really ship internationally to consumers in the USA for the time being. it's gonna be a clusterfuck.

Turns out maybe there's a reason there aren't usually major changes to whole structure of import taxes made with only months notice, and tweaks and changes to them still being made only weeks/days before implementation, with no real implementation guidance provided?

tlogan 2 days ago | parent [-]

Both UPS and FedEx have been handling this correctly for years. They provide a simple option where you can choose who pays the tariffs (the shipper or the recipient). If it is the recipient, you just include their email and phone number so they can be contacted.

The “only” difference now is that the $800 limit no longer applies, so every shipment must include this information.

Which basically means end of Temu, Alibaba express, majority of Etsy sellers, etc.

lxgr 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, UPS and FedEx have supported customs processing for a long time, but many direct-to-consumer vendors from China are using USPS directly via China Post, which does not.

I believe there are other models now (e.g. where shipping companies bulk-import and customs clear shipments and then hand them off to USPS inside the US as domestic shipments), but the "direct parcel" USPS route going away for all formerly de-minimis-exempt parcels is still going to have a huge impact, without even considering import tariffs directly.

rkagerer 2 days ago | parent [-]

Advice to US international shippers: When shipping to Canada, UPS is the worst. They charge an arm and a leg to process the paperwork (often to the point where their brokerage fees outsize the actual duties and taxes owed), and even after I told them multiple times to use my own customs broker they seemed to "forget" or play games like delaying release of the needed paperwork. USPS is most reasonable, Purolator is OK, FedEx is still expensive but marginally better.

jrochkind1 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Good point. The issue is, according to OP, that they don't yet know how to calculate the correct amount for new rules going into effect in 3 days, or at any rate have that knowledge implemented into their systems.

tlogan 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The rule is from April 2, 2025 but we were all thinking about TACOs.

But the congress passed the bill to permanently repeals the legal basis for the de minimis exemption so no more TACOs. And I love TACOs…

jrochkind1 2 days ago | parent [-]

End of de minimus means you have to calculate taxes on a lot more packages; but you have to know what the tariffs are to calculate them, and it seems like that's been going all over the place, and could change again at any time?

lxgr 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not just about not being able to calculate the correct amount – they don't have a scalable way of charging anyone for it!

jleyank 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Puts the crimp on shipping personal birthday or holiday presents also. People will have to purchase within the US, which presents problems for many folks being unable to pay for such purchases.

rkagerer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes. But let me clarify... the order was from a US merchant and shipped to Canada. Apparently at the time we put matching reciprocal tarrifs in place (some were since removed, I'm not sure whether these included). I assumed the aluminum and steel tarrifs were only on bulk raw materials, but apparently because there was no certified "% content" declaration, customs treated the whole shipment as metal.

Historically I buy a lot of high-end goods from the US on an annual basis, but after this incident I'll be actively avoiding doing so and the surprises that entails, until things get sane again.

brandall10 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s fundamentally how tariffs work. The importer pays the cost. If it’s a finished good to a consumer, they pay the full amount. If it’s a finished good to a retailer, it’s the wholesale cost. If it’s on components used domestically, it’s the wholesale cost of those components.

In the latter two cases, it’s up to the domestic supply chain to decide how and and how much of those costs get passed on to consumers.

quest88 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think op was missing the /s. His comment is a typical reply on this subject that makes fun of MAGAs who didn’t realize this.

2 days ago | parent [-]
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throwawaylaptop 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If a US made Bolt is $1, and a Chinese one is $0.50, I buy Chinese. If now the Chinese bolt is $1, I buy American. If China tries to reduce the price of their bolt to $0.40, making it $0.80 for me, I still buy American because of quality and speed and reputation and returns, and more. So China makes the Bolt $0.25, I pay $0.50, and all is back to normal.

Yes I technically paid the tariff.... Except really China lost money, the US gained money, and I paid the same because that's the price difference required for me to buy Chinese.

Will it always work out like this? Idk. But this is what they are referring to when saying the exporter will pay it in the end.

psyklic 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

In actuality, the Chinese company can't half their prices. So instead of paying $0.50 for a Chinese bolt, consumers now will pay $1.00.

Unfortunately the US bolts will not be plentiful enough. They'll also have to import steel to meet new demand, increasing their price. So ultimately you'll still buy the Chinese product but it will now cost double the price -- $1.00 after tarrifs. Hence the price of everything that has a bolt will increase.

throwawaylaptop 2 days ago | parent [-]

Why can't they? You think Chinese products are priced to perfection via competition? Or maybe their government had a hand in it, or they learned to price to what the market will pay.. I guess we'll find out... Either it'll be what makes sense to me, or what some writer told you.

psyklic 2 days ago | parent [-]

Sure, let's suppose they go down some. For the same reasons you'll still end up paying more for the same Chinese products, which will raise domestic prices.

robocat 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Good imperial bolts.

Does the US make the machines that make the bolts any more?

And what if you needed metric bolts?

"I Tried To Make Something In America (The Smarter Scrubber Experiment)" https://youtu.be/3ZTGwcHQfLY talks about the trouble he had finding US made bolts and I seem to remember he found out he'd been scammed and was sold Chinese bolts anyway? (Edit: Skip to around 17m35s)

brandall10 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure, we can argue all the we want as to who 'pays', but the ultimate goal is to apply pressure to the importer to take another route.

throwawaylaptop 2 days ago | parent [-]

Or for take back some of the profits from the exporter.. China has had enough money to develope roads and buildings and companies way beyond what the US has seen in the same time frame. We don't need to allow them to make as much as they have been.

theshackleford 2 days ago | parent [-]

> We don't need to allow them to make as much as they have been.

I feel the same way about the US which is why I won’t spend money on media or software, and encourage others to follow a similar path.

As you insinuate, it’s just logical because the US has had enough money, way beyond my country you see.

throwawaylaptop 2 days ago | parent [-]

Of course, if a poorer country is sending their money to a richer country for things they can make at home or get from somewhere else, they would be pretty dumb.

nosioptar 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Will it always work out like this?

Nope. Bolt price goes up. I can't afford it, and don't buy anyone's bolt. Both the American dude I'd buy it from and the Chinese dude that makes it lose money.

churchill 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Except, the price difference will be more like $1 for the Chinese product & $20-40 for the American product. The Chinese have tremendous scale that no one else can really compete with. Some factory floors have rows of thousands of workers assembling just one stuff. Maybe pressing irons, kitchen utensils, knives, etc. Their wages are significantly lower, so you just can't compete.

There's a video on YouTube now of a manufacturer that tried to onshore his grill scrubber product. Couldn't find the components, no matter how he tried, and ended up subsisting with Indian parts, probably laundered from China, with a complementary markup of course.

The way Americans talk about these tariffs show you don't know what it takes to build a strong manufacturing economy. For decades, China has suppressed their workers' wages, diluting their wealth to transfer it to Western buyers as cheap good. They've invested in scale, building factories worth hundreds of billions, which often don't make profits for years on end.

In America, every CEO has to show a stock bump by the end of the quarter of get tossed.

If you take the logic of tariffs to their natural conclusion, why not farm your own corn, raise your own beef, pick your cotton, etc. Specialization is the reason why we can enjoy abundance because things get made where it's cheapest and then get shipped to you. The average American waiting tables at a restaurant makes more than the Chinese working the manufacturing jobs you're trying to get back, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?

In summary, America doesn't know what it's doing. Those of us who come from countries who put excessive tariffs on everything, know that it never leads to local production, but serves as just another government revenue channel. But what do I know?

throwawaylaptop 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

We do make our own beef and our own corn. But beyond that, even at my house we make our own lemons (2 trees), tomatoes (60 plants), grapefruits (6 trees), and then process and freeze enough to last as long as possible. Because the stuff you can buy in stores is a fraction of the quality you get from home if you know what you're doing.

If only this specialization was focused on making good products instead of making 3% more money.

churchill 2 days ago | parent [-]

So, is it feasible for all Americans families to grow their own food like you do?

throwawaylaptop 2 days ago | parent [-]

Maybe not, but it's a good goal and if someone implemented a plan to make it more common I would be for it.

churchill 2 days ago | parent [-]

Americans willingly stopped farming their own food because it's more economical for farmers to grow in bulk and sell for a little profit. The only way to make more people farm their food would be by government compulsion.

Why would you want that?

And any time they spend growing their own food is time they don't spend on some other economic activity they're obviously better at.

throwawaylaptop a day ago | parent [-]

Why would we want that? Because the food is substantially better quality and healthier.

And the time? We do this in our spare time outside of full time jobs. But you're right, it does cut into our Netflix, tv, YouTube, Facebook time.

epolanski 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Most Chinese manufacturing is done by robots. China is by far the biggest installer of robots in industry too. They install more than the entire world combined.

baggachipz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's what has been said since the beginning of this madness. People don't understand how this works, and took the word of a corrupt madman.

somat 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It ends up being like sales tax in the US. It is the store that pays the sales tax(note 1), but I have never seen a store just include the tax in the price, they always pass it on as an extra charge to the end customer. And this may not be a bad thing. It is probably good for the general public to be explicitly reminded how much tax they are paying.

1: You don't add up and pay the tax board every month right? In fact this is the central theme to successfully collecting taxes, never collect them directly from the public if possable. That is a hard thankless task. It is much easier to steal them from the much more easily policed companies, before the public sees the money in the form of income tax or when they buy in the form of a sales tax. As a specific example remember the "use" tax, you were supposed to do just that, add up and pay the sales tax for things you bought out of your sales tax jurisdiction, this proved impossible to collect so with the massive increase in sales out of the tax jurisdiction(cough, amazon, cough) the courts ordered that each company had to now keep track of and pay the sales tax for every infernal piddling little sales tax area, a huge hassle for them, but that's not the states problem and it is much easier to enforce than having each person do it.

greycol 2 days ago | parent [-]

It's generally not like a store, it's charged at time of import not at time of sale. The seller can choose to pre-pay for the importer (the customer) but they'll only do that if they know what to pay. If they don't know what to pay (i.e. if the tariffs change randomly with no notice) they'll tick the box that says importer pays and the buyer gets a call from customs when it arrives in the country saying pay the tariff or we impound/destroy your goods.

Henchman21 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Please for the love all that is good and holy tell me you’re joking. If not, HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK THIS WORKED???

jmorenoamor 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Everything is paid by the customer. As a manufacturer I can temporaly absorb some costs to keep prices steady, but at some point, I have to adjust prices to maintain a reasonable margin.

So yes, I will pay for my country's tariffs and you will pay for yours.

It's a bad scenario where things are more expensive and both manufacturers and customers get harmed. The only ones winning are, as always, intermediaries.

jleyank 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hope you forgot your /s... Otherwise, better go get a clue-stick somewhere.

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mystraline 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And this is the ignorance we have to fight against.

I'll repeat this for those in the back:

TARIFFS ARE PAID BY THE CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY DOING THE TARIFFS.

TARRIFFS ARE NOT PAID BY OTHER COUNTRIES.

This is excessive and illegal taxation without representation. Congratulations, party of low taxes, you now have socialist-like taxes without any of the socialist benefits.

Sohcahtoa82 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> TARRIFFS ARE NOT PAID BY OTHER COUNTRIES.

Here's what gets me...

EVEN IF the exporter paid the tariff, do people really think they'd just eat that cost? Of course not. They'd raise the price on the importer who would then raise the price for the end consumer. In the end, it's the consumer who pays the tariff, whether it's nominally paid by the exporter or importer.

sowbug 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's regressive taxation, so for the "party of low taxes" it's totally OK.

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TylerE 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Um, yes! Who do you think was going to pay it?

The Trump tariffs are the biggest tax increase in the lower and middle classes ever.

mathiaspoint 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

PCBs seem like the easiest thing to estimate this for? I'm not in front of my computer now but I'm reasonably sure either XPCB or JLCPCB's GRBL viewer already has a function for it and if they didn't it wouldn't be hard to write one.