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| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, seize the means of production, indeed. Funny that this time this started from the right side of the political spectrum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory | | |
| ▲ | ronsor 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Horseshoe theory is real, but there's also the fact that politics has more than one axis. Authoritarianism is the common denominator; only the details vary. | | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Makes sense. If you think you have the best idea, the natural next move is to force everyone to follow that best idea, no room for disagreement or alternatives. This pops up everywhere, everywhere ideology is involved in decisions. | | |
| ▲ | mrkstu 2 days ago | parent [-] | | A recent guest (historian) made that point on the Triggernomitry podcast. Stalin, Mao, Castro, Hitler- they were all 'idealists.' They were in it to improve the human (or some subset thereof) condition. And they weren't going to let anyone get in their way of making things better! | | |
| ▲ | sherr 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That guest is Dominic Sandbrook, one half of the excellent "Rest is History" podcast. You can't make an omellete without breaking a few eggs, after all. That was Lenin, supposedly. edit: spelling of "one" | |
| ▲ | sitkack 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Idealists in the sense of a simplistic worldview. It is worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf-bSAnW_E0 but it itself is a somewhat simplistic take. | |
| ▲ | gtowey 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's probably more accurate to say they were reductionists -- it's easy to imagine an ideal system if you ignore the complexities of reality. Which is why they all failed. I bet it's related to the tendency for narcissism where you believe that you alone have all the right answers. | |
| ▲ | int_19h 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | On the contrary, Stalin was one of the most brutally pragmatic politicians of the 20th century. | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is what's scary about Elon Musk talking about 'sustainable abundance'. |
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| ▲ | uncircle a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Which is why it's so fun to see American leftists and rightists get at each other throats, while they share the common denominator of authoritarianism and are more similar than they would like to admit. | |
| ▲ | robocat 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > politics has more than one axis. The "political compass" has two dimensions: left/right horizontally and authoritarian/libertarian vertically. Unfortunately "political compass" is also for the quadrant memes: https://en.meming.world/wiki/Political_Compass (which has some good commentary on the compass and great examples). And there's the Nolan Chart: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart which is even more confusing. The word "liberal" is not used in New Zealand much, although perhaps the US meaning is taking hold. Also centrist here is unclear so the Nolan Chart makes no sense to me. | |
| ▲ | anthem2025 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | there is not one intelligent credible person on planet earth who endorses horseshoe theory. It’s utter nonsense designed to try and discredit anyone outside of a narrow neoliberal window. Had exactly the effect that I’d expect. Hollowed out every aspect of society and helped lead to exactly the sort of extreme government you don’t want. | | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Okay, click on the wikipedia link and you can find a reasonable number of credible sources the article cites. You can follow citations from these citations to find primary search that shows quite a bit of support for it in academic political science. | | |
| ▲ | anthem2025 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I think the obvious conclusion from my post is that I don’t find any of those people credible. At all. I’d go so far as to say I think anyone peddling horseshoe theory is a politically illiterate fool regardless of their supposed qualifications. It’s funny that you want me to read the imitation though. “ Several political scientists, psychologists, and sociologists have criticized the horseshoe theory.[3][4][5] Proponents point to a number of perceived similarities between extremes and allege that both tend to support authoritarianism or totalitarianism; political scientists do not appear to support this notion, and instances of peer-reviewed research on the subject are scarce. Existing studies and comprehensive reviews often find only limited support and only under certain conditions; they generally contradict the theory's central premises.” | | |
| ▲ | int_19h 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I grew up in Russia in early 90s when we had literal Nazis and literal Stalinists openly marching on the streets and running in elections. I don't know what to tell you except that the term "red-brown" became popular for a good reason. (And I'm far left myself, by the way.) | | |
| ▲ | anthem2025 a day ago | parent [-] | | That’s nice. It’s not an argument at all IMO, but good for you. > I'm far left myself, by the way So you would, logically, describe yourself as a fascist then? | | |
| ▲ | int_19h a day ago | parent [-] | | No, because I'm an extreme libertarian, not an authoritarian leftist. But I would describe many tankies as borderline fascist or worse, yet I cannot deny that their economic platform is left-wing. |
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| ▲ | softwaredoug 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I believe when you look at Germany, the Far Right party is much more popular in former Soviet strongholds (East Germany outside Berlin) | | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If you overload right to mean authoritarian, for sure. Good to remember that pretty much all leftist governments had to pivot toward authoritarianism 'for the greater good'. | | |
| ▲ | anthem2025 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don’t understand what you’re even trying to say here. AfD is objectively far more popular in the former east Germany. Look at a map of votes, it’s clear as day. The borders are exact. They are not a left wing party, not at all. They are a far right party. It makes sense that the the economically struggling former communist areas would be both more drawn to extreme parties and have a distaste for the left. | | |
| ▲ | adwn 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > It makes sense that the the economically struggling former communist areas would be both more drawn to extreme parties and have a distaste for the left. That: "have a distaste for the left" is extremely wrong, because before the AfD, the far-left parties which traced their history back to the SED (the socialist party of the GDR (East Germany)) were very popular there, much more so than in West Germany. | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > They are not a left wing party, not at all. They are a far right party. They are a populist semi big tent party as well. They are not particularly coherent but there is some overlap between some of their policies and what some in the far-left might support (Euroscepticism, the Euro and such) | | |
| ▲ | anthem2025 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Oh wow, what some of the far left might support. Totally erases their literal nazi ideologies. | | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > erases No, hence horseshoe theory. You are the one arguing for 'erases' here. Given the horseshoe theory is valid, it seems completely on point for these assholes to have some far left ideas. Doesn't make them not nazis. | | |
| ▲ | anthem2025 2 days ago | parent [-] | | But horseshoe theory isn’t valid. It’s entirely nonsense. It’s mostly an excuse for centrists to feel morally superior as the results of their useless ideology lead inevitably to fascism. | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt a day ago | parent [-] | | > But horseshoe theory isn’t valid You keep repeating that yet on certain axis like authoritarianism, free speech etc. there is a massive overlap to the extent that there is based almost no difference in some of the policies supported by far left/right. |
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| ▲ | wqaatwt 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > erases their literal nazi ideologies If you say so. Seems like a rather incoherent view though… Fact is that there is a lot of overlap between far and far right voters in ex-socialist parts of Eastern Europe. Just compare the supporters of BSW and AFD in Germany.. If you want the most absurd example this was a thing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party | |
| ▲ | mamonster 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | AfD is literally a shitty copy-paste of UDC/SVP (Switzerland). Shitty because they lack the one big advantage SVP had in the 90s: Big money backing it. If AfD had at least ONE German billionaire seriously backing it they would already be in power. |
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| ▲ | StefanBatory 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Don't forget about Wagenknecht though. Very conservative socially, very left wing economically. | |
| ▲ | danaris 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, far right parties are very often more popular in areas that have seen more economic hardship. East Germany was economically crippled for the latter half of the 20th century under Soviet rule. It's started to recover, a bit, but it's slow going. That makes the people there more willing to listen to anyone who will lie to them about a) who's responsible, and b) how easy it is to solve their problems. |
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| ▲ | thrance 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Read the "Academic studies and criticism" section of the very page you linked. Horseshoe theory is nothing but a bunch of baloney, that is actually harmful to understanding the current situation. No, fascist consolidation of state and businesses has little to do with communism and "seizing the means of production". | | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > fascist consolidation of state and businesses has little to do with communism and "seizing the means of production". Yeah sure they are very different except for the consolidation of state and business that every fascist and every communist state has attempted :) | | |
| ▲ | thrance 2 days ago | parent [-] | | What's your point? Why do you refuse to learn about the actual reasons we are in this mess? Do you not want to expand on your very surface level understanding of politics and ideology? The mechanisms behind both ideologies are different, and the outcomes are different too. |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | edbaskerville 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It wasn't called National Socialism for nothing. | | |
| ▲ | crote 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Just like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is well-known to be a bastion of democracy. | |
| ▲ | thrance 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | First thing Hitler did was arrest the socialists and communists, then make unions illegal. | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Not that I agree with the comment above but that means nothing at all on itself. One of the first things the Socialist government did was violently put down a communist coup. The communists would have abolished democracy ASAP and purged the socialists if they ever took power. Fact is that extremist movements will crack down on anyone that tries competing with them for power. Ideological affinity hardly matters. | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | snozolli 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Please name, say, three elements of NAZI policies that were socialist. To my knowledge, the only thing that's even a tiny bit socialist was Hitler's plan for some sort of central bank, because of course he saw banking and loans as part of some Jewish conspiracy. Hitler was an O.G. troll, taking over the Workers' Party and renaming it with the word Socialism purely to aggravate his political opponents. He hated socialists, communists, and anarchists. | | |
| ▲ | int_19h 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_Through_Joy, just to give one example. | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > three elements of NAZI policies that were socialist Government control over transportation, newspapers, and other industries that should ideally not choose profits over quality of service. Communalized non-profit grocery stores. Sounds familiar? Strict measures to ban or nationalize war profiteering, high interest rates, capital heavy business models allowing rent seeking. Explicit profit sharing required by large companies. Welfare state with free healthcare and expanded pension funds. Sometimes 'bad' people have the same 'good' ideas you have. Now sure why this is so difficult to grasp. | | |
| ▲ | snozolli 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Government control over transportation No idea what you mean. Public transportation? If that's socialist, then any functional, modern society is going to be socialist on your book. If you mean control over private transportation, then I guess America was socialist during WWII. newspapers There's nothing socialist about that. Welfare state with free healthcare and expanded pension funds. I really don't think that you can call a "welfare" program Socialist when it excludes Jews, non-Germans, and even anyone who was against the regime. Sometimes 'bad' people have the same 'good' ideas you have. You have absolutely no idea what ideas I have. Now sure why this is so difficult to grasp. Not sure why you choose to be rude. |
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| ▲ | Yeul 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People get angry when you say this but you are right. Paid holidays, retirement, health insurance. There is a reason why Nazis were popular. Ofcourse it was all built on economic quicksand. | |
| ▲ | danaris 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Right: Socialism only for those who were worthy. Those considered to be "true" parts of the German Nation. Everyone else gets to be exploited, deported, or just plain murdered. | | |
| ▲ | fooker 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, that's how socialism has worked almost everywhere it has been tried. Everything goes fine when you have enough resources. When you don't, you suddenly always need to create this division between 'real citizens' and 'others' to maintain (1) your hold on power through votes or force, and (2) expected standard of living. This is why promising free stuff to everyone is a bad idea, not because people shouldn't have stuff, but because once you can not, things get ugly. | | |
| ▲ | danaris 2 days ago | parent [-] | | 1) Nazism was always, from the very start, explicitly about doing this. It was not an attempt at "true" socialism that degenerated into this; it was 100% intended to divide people into the Master Race and the Inferior Savages. 2) From my understanding, the only times a country has ever claimed itself to be "fully socialist", or attempting to be so (rather than democratic socialism, like various northern European countries), the countries have actually been authoritarian dictatorships with a few superficial trappings of socialism-for-the-few. 3) The common counterargument I have seen to #2 is "but that's just a No True Scotsman fallacy!" It is not. No True Scotsman applies when there is some potential fuzziness to the definition of the term that the person committing it is exploiting to try to argue that the thing is not what is being claimed. The USSR, for instance, was no more Socialist than the DPRK is Democratic; it was so in name only, in an attempt to claim that it was a genuine step on the road toward Marxist communism, when in fact it was just an authoritarian state. The term "Socialism" does not stretch to cover "any state that declares itself to be Socialist, no matter what its actual policies are." 4) As a global—and especially Western—society, we have more abundance today than we have ever had before. We have vastly more capability to produce food, medicine, housing, and all the other necessities of life, as well as modern conveniences like internet, computers, and smartphones, and even luxuries, than we did during the periods in the 20th century when various countries were attempting to convert to communism or socialism (and being, almost universally, co-opted by dictators). Even if we grant your premise in full, that we have, as a collective, been unable to sustain socialism in the past due to a failure to actually provide for all people does not mean that such conditions are still in effect. It certainly does not mean that they will hold forever. 5) Really kinda suspect that you post this as a snide response to a post very specifically explaining what Nazism was. Though somewhat less surprising looking just a little bit into your comment history. |
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| ▲ | 1832 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | shafoshaf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a great podcast on philosophy in general, but this episode on Technofeudalism
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5SjdkYzdSp6tHTdD2o1OAe?si=8...
talks directly about the state of Big Tech taking over the capitalist free market. The same as is happening with large scale industries like you mention. | | |
| ▲ | mckirk 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I knew without clicking this would be Philosophize This. I friggin love that podcast, and keep recommending it to friends. The only problem I have with it is that I like to listen to it while driving, but I can't stop to take notes every five minutes. (Small anecdote: A while back I was listening to the series on anarchy, as a philosophical view questioning the power of the state, and in the middle of the episode I got stopped by the police. Which, especially when driving in Bavaria, can happen randomly without any reason, for those confused.) | | |
| ▲ | StefanBatory 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It makes me so happy that he's still going. I remember listening to him when I was like 15, and now I'm way older... | |
| ▲ | RankingMember 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This podcast is one of my favorites to listen to while out riding my bike. Something about the cardio + his way of breaking down the core meaning behind philosophers' works is just a very edifying and enjoyable experience. I had no idea who Byung-Chul_Han was before listening to this podcast- he has a lot of interesting things to say about the current state of our capitalist society. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byung-Chul_Han ) |
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| ▲ | pstuart 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's a fascist coup, and they're tidying up the loose ends. | | |
| ▲ | newsclues 2 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Fascism is the world's most evil people lying to the world's most stupid people about what fascism is. | | |
| ▲ | thrance 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Huh? Can you expand on that? Is fascism completely devoid of meaning then? | | |
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| ▲ | pstuart 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We're not supposed to get political here, but my comment was more observation rather than accusation. As for communism -- if you think the Dems are communists I recommend you research what communism really means. Disclaimer: I'm non-partisan and abhor partisan politics, but I do think the Constitution is a worthy document to try to adhere to as best possible. | |
| ▲ | anthem2025 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, it’s a reaction to capitalism failing. It’s capitalism eating itself. | | |
| ▲ | pstuart 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's beyond that. There's a strong element of White Nationalism and Christo-Fascism at play as well. The proponents make their intentions very clear, albeit without the self-labeling as such. | |
| ▲ | 1shooner 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It’s capitalism eating itself. I thought that was kind of a definition, or at least broad explanation, of fascism. | |
| ▲ | cmrdporcupine 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Both" were true "classically" in early 20th century Europe in the sense that capitalism being in crisis drove the rise of the communist movement. And then the fascist movement (and other strongly reactionary movements) rose in reaction / fear of that. Today's pseudo-fascism in the form of Trumpism is something else. More of a reaction to a) climate crisis and the potential/growing crisis in the energy sector and b) and identity politics/culture-wars stuff. |
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| ▲ | jacquesm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Slightly different location. |
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