| ▲ | 0xcafefood 2 days ago |
| "Labour shortages do not arise because of a lack of suitable workers, they occur instead because of inadequate immigration policies that limit or deny the movement of capable, working-age people from elsewhere to fill local demand. Indeed, none of the existing credible population projections predicts a
decline in the global population." This seems to weaken the entire paper. The only regions poised for continuing population growth into the second half of this century are in sub-Saharan Africa and maybe Afghanistan [1]. Is the premise here that unlimited immigration into other regions from sub-Saharan Africa will sustain their economies (and other ways of life?) as the local populations decline? I'm extremely skeptical of that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population_projections |
|
| ▲ | Aurornis 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > "Labour shortages do not arise because of a lack of suitable workers, they occur instead because of inadequate immigration policies This does appear to be an admission that labor shortages occur due to lack of workers. The authors propose a solution (immigration) to the problem, but in doing so pretend the problem doesn't exist. |
| |
| ▲ | somenameforme 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The paper is fundamentally flawed in numerous technical ways also. The most overt is that they are looking at the current state of countries with low fertility rates. The consequences of low fertility lag the onset of low fertility by many decades, but are largely inescapable. Taken to an extreme, if everybody in a country just stopped having children, that country would look, from an economic point of view, excellent for at least a couple of decades. For a real example, South Korea has a fertility rate of ~0.7 while Japan has a fertility rate of ~1.4. Yet South Korea seems to be doing okayish, while Japan has clearly entered into decline. The reason is because South Korea had a 3+ fertility rate all the way up to 1976, whereas Japan hasn't had a 3+ fertility rate since 1952. Give South Korea a couple of decades and it'll make the Japan of today look like a utopia. For that matter give Japan a couple of decades and it'll make the Japan of today look like a utopia - their decline is still just beginning, as they only hit the current lows in the 90s. | | |
| ▲ | 0xcafefood 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > if everybody in a country just stopped having children, that country would look, from an economic point of view, excellent for at least a couple of decades. There's even a name for this: the demographic dividend. It's the demographic capital gains tax that comes afterwards that bites hard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_dividend |
| |
| ▲ | rayiner 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The authors propose a solution (immigration) to the problem, but in doing so pretend the problem doesn't exist It’s quite remarkable. They assert the problem doesn’t exist by essentially treating a highly debated policy change as inexorable. |
|
|
| ▲ | loeg 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It is a major flaw. Birth rate is falling basically everywhere and below replacement (~2.1) even in places people think of as booming in recent history -- India is at 1.98, South America somewhere around 1.8. It's really just portions of Africa that still have TFR above 2.1 and the rates there are declining over time, too. Immigranting your way of a demographic collapse only works if there are lots of births happening somewhere else. |
| |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jesusfv/Slides_London.pdf The demographic future of humanity: facts and consequences [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44866621 - August 2025 (400 comments) (slide 39, net migration to Earth is zero) | | |
| ▲ | ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Roughly speaking, the bottom 70% of the population receives net payments (and services) from the government over their lifetime, while the 70%-90% percentile receives approximately zero net payments, the top 10% pays it all. Well, maybe if there was more equal income distribution, less overall penalization to those who do not have as many assets, and so on, then it would be more distributed? I mean, that is basically what is happening anyway, but you have a nation distributing that wealth through social programs, instead of capitalists sharing their take willingly with those who helped them earn it. | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yip, I'm a advocate for capitalism but there's definitely a bug with interest/investments in that earning money makes it even easier to earn money, even if you do absolutely nothing with your life. Just dump everything in a diversified portfolio and you become an infinite money printer when you reach the point of having enough money that all your expanses are small relative to your capital gains. This issue radically distorts the concept of who is contributing to society and who is living off the contributions of others. | | |
| ▲ | nullc 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | OTOH that same unequal distribution allows investment and patronage in areas that would otherwise go unfunded, ... some of which goes on to create revolutionary technologies that benefit everyone. | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I think the topic of an unequal distribution is somewhat different than somebody earning tremendous amounts of money in exchange for doing literally nothing. It can lead to it of course, but I think that even if we put a million people, from birth, on an island with absolutely identical initial conditions - give the islanders a few generations, and there would be people doing dramatically better than others. I don't really see a problem with this. The point I was making is that tax receipts don't really tell you much of anything about who's contributing to society. For instance farmers tend to be living close to broke and are typical recipients of various assistance programs. By contrast the Waltons have paid more in tax than most people will earn in their lifetime, many times over. Nonetheless, the world wouldn't even notice if the Waltons, and all like them, suddenly disappeared - whereas there'd be a catastrophic effect were the same to happen to even a tiny fraction of farmers. In a way the current system is sort of like a privatized deflationary system. Your money becomes worth more over time, but only if you're wealthy enough to buy this privilege. For everybody else, inflation makes their money, and frequently their earnings, only decrease over time. And I think this is highly undesirable, even for somebody 100% okay with inequality. |
| |
| ▲ | imtringued 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ok, now go on YouTube and search for root bug, since you're so keen on bugs. |
| |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
| |
| ▲ | PicassoCTs 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The truth is that woman, given a informed choice without societal or religious pressure - would rather not have children. So artificial wombs and AI for raising it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_womb Is this a good solution? No. But its a foreseeable feasible one that does not involve slavery. Which, lets not kid ourselves, the migration approach is also. Just outsourced slavery. Of course, societal status and contract-control functions that were allocating resources and value to woman would have to be reevaluated - as what remains is a faction of the population unwilling to contribute anything but terrorist movements trying to take over because that urge for societal control and fear of non-power is to strong. | | |
| ▲ | PlunderBunny 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | No criticism of you, nor do I want to put words in your mouth, but there seems to be a generalisation to 'all woman' in this argument, and from that an unstated assumption that the only way for humanity to preserve itself is something like artificial wombs/coercion etc. Surely another possible scenario is that the people that aren't interested in having children (or the conditions that make people not want to have children) will 'go away' as the population declines, and we will reach a new stable population level? Who can say which one of these is more likely? | | |
| ▲ | 0xcafefood 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > [P]eople that aren't interested in having children will 'go away' as the population declines, and we will reach a new stable population level? I think this is exactly what we're seeing. This is evolution as a punctuated equilibrium. Nature's last trick "sex feels good (but also leads to babies)" is breaking down in effectiveness on people. Instead, it will be some innate desire to have children that will carry some subpopulation forward. Given the extremely strong selection pressure on (it affects the one life event most determinative of "evolutionary success") this could happen really quickly. | |
| ▲ | PicassoCTs 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That opens just the next can of worm- with self-selecting for non-rationality in a population. Just letting the thing run its course is basically a eugenics program against rational people. Its basically the enlightenment weeding itself out, which i would find sad, liking the civilization i reside in. |
| |
| ▲ | loeg 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t think that’s necessarily true — people have fewer kids than they desire. Addressing that gap would get us to replacement rate. And obviously, the current rate is significantly non-zero. |
| |
| ▲ | danaris 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I can't speak to places outside of the Western Anglosphere, because I simply don't have any information about them—but within it, it's abundantly clear (and there have been some recent studies bearing this out) that a major cause of reduced birth rates is lack of economic opportunity among the non-capital-owning classes. I 100% guarantee you that if we implemented a full UBI today—one that would pay something close to the median individual income, and even if it were only for adults (and thus you got no "bonus" for having extra kids)—once the initial chaos settled down, you'd see those birth rates go up quite a bit. So many people are waiting to have kids until they're financially stable enough...and then they never become so. I know that one of the big reasons my wife and I didn't have kids in our 20s was because we were concerned about our financial stability (and frankly, we were better off than most of the people that age today—by quite a ways, since we were homeowners). | | |
| ▲ | raindeer2 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Having a Scandinavian perspective on this, where birthrates also have fallen a lot recently, I don't think financial stability is the only factor. In my experience ppl here don't wait with having kids so long due to lack of money. With the social safety net we have here, free healthcare and education, paid parental leave etc, you are fine as long as you have a decent job. The reason that ppl wait until they are 35+ to get kids is rather that they want to do other shit first and just stay "young" longer and don't want the responsibility. Having kids is just not that important for ppl so they wait until they are kind of bored of other things and then they are often suddenly too old, or fail to find a good partner, or just don't want the responsibility. |
| |
| ▲ | slaw 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Africa has TFR 4.1 | | |
| ▲ | loeg 2 days ago | parent [-] | | For now, yes. It’s trending down, just like everywhere else. | | |
| ▲ | Dig1t 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Israel is trending up, TFR of >3. They have actually turned their low birth rates around after a period of low rates. They are a sign that this trend of declining birth rates is not eternal and can be reversed. |
|
| |
| ▲ | eastbound 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
|
|
| ▲ | raincole 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It also means some places on earth have to be kept in poverty or even wars. That's the biggest driver moving people out from their homeland. People who live good, peaceful lives are mostly staying where their are. It might be a valid strategy and a very likely future, but I hope all the "we will just let immigrants in so don't worry about birth rates" people think about the implications here. |
| |
| ▲ | MSFT_Edging 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If all this sounds unsustainable, it's because it is. We're essentially legitimizing a pyramid scheme here. Economics and policy are all centered around extraction and share holder value. I've never seen any attention paid to making an industry stable or resilient. Nearly every issue we face day-to-day is either due to companies holding massive control over our society, or companies degrading services we rely on because profit is no longer increasing. We're not allowed a stable, peaceful life in a stable climate because someone else needs to get one over on someone else. We could provide for everyone but we have decided making immaterial numbers go up is #1 priority. When I ask why can't we have companies that exist in a steady state, the answer is another company will take advantage if the first company doesn't first. Why do we live like this? Is this system truly responsible for our technology and comfort? or is the comfort a side-product that can be produced by a number of other systems? We're being played for fools. We all know it, but we can't imagine an alternative because they've got us all by the balls controlling our health care and housing. | | | |
| ▲ | HankStallone 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, the open borders folks like to paint a rosy picture of, "If we let a bunch of people come here and work cheap, it'll make things better back in their homelands too as they take their training and wages back sometimes." But if that's true, pretty soon they won't have any reason to come here and work cheap, and then the reason the bosses wanted them in the first place is gone. I don't think they really expect that to happen (and we can observe that it hasn't); it's just a sales pitch. | | |
| ▲ | GuinansEyebrows 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > open borders folks i don't mean to sound pithy, but some "open borders folks" just fundamentally disagree with the concept of borders (and usually, by extension, the monopoly of violence employed at those borders), regardless of economics. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That does sound like bad news for exploiters, but it sounds like a good thing for people who actually want people to be better off. If open borders means people come, work for cheap, improve their homelands, and eventually stop coming, that sounds like a win-win to me. Are you sure some of the open borders folks aren't thinking like that? | | |
| ▲ | raincole 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If rich countries' sustanibility depends on poor countries staying poor, it creates a huge incentive for the rich countries to destablize the poor countries and keep them poor. Just like the US once destablized its southern neighbors to keep them exporting cheap fruits, if the only thing that keeps the US's pension system from exploding is cheap workers from the neighbors, it'd want them to keep exporting cheap labor. Of course one might argue rich countries will do that anyway so it's not a concern. It's just icing on a poisoned cake. | |
| ▲ | dkiebd 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The issue here is that nowhere is the wellbeing of the low income natives considered. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Is it not considered, or do they just disagree on the effects? The open borders advocacy I've seen is based on it being good for everyone. |
|
| |
| ▲ | AlOwain 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | So what to you is the alternative better interpretation; that they continue in destitute poverty? | | |
| |
| ▲ | mattlutze 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's an unsupported assertion. Lots of non-Ukranian Europeans still want to move to the US for example, because there's an idea that in skilled jobs you can make more money in the US. Likewise, India isn't "kept" in poverty nor is the country at war, but the opportunity for economic prosperity elsewhere is a strong driver for migration. And when India surpasses the US or Europe in economic prospects, the trend will reverse and enterprising people will flock to e.g. Hyderabad and New Delhi. Economic prosperity, until we do away with capitalism, probably won't ever be homogeneous. Where there's a potential across a circuit the electrons will flow. |
|
|
| ▲ | nsxwolf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So the assumption is that some populations will always reproduce in sufficient numbers and immigrate, and this just goes on forever and everything’s fine? Those other populations never age and decline? |
| |
| ▲ | 0xcafefood 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That is _one_ assumption. Another is that immigrants into these countries can and will just plug right into the local economy and be adequate substitutes for the economic effects of the local population decline. There's everything about a country unrelated to economics that isn't even addressed too that will likely have ... big implications for these countries receiving the mass immigration too. These will likely also affect the economy. | |
| ▲ | allemagne 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The paper explicitly states that global population decline is not being projected. Obviously that can't be true "forever" assuming that trends never reverse, but their scope is just the "long-term." | |
| ▲ | carlosjobim 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That sums up the ideology: That some ethnicities should continuously replace other ethnicities until the latter group has been genetically exterminated. |
|
|
| ▲ | jjk166 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Even if global population continued to increase forever, that doesn't mean a particular nation would be able to get those immigrants to come fix their demographic woes. It doesn't matter how easy Moldova makes it for people to immigrate, who is choosing to go there over other destinations just as in need of fresh blood? Countries like the US and western Europe maybe can solve their demographic problems with immigration for the next few decades, that doesn't mean that its a generally viable strategy or that it will keep working in a future world when these nations are well past their prime. |
|
| ▲ | rawgabbit 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Below is the entire paragraph. The first part of the paragraph summarized their research that declining populations do not decline in wealth or productivity; instead their Figure 8 shows increases in Wealth, Research & Development, Human Capital etc. The second part of the paragraph is obtuse and ambiguous wording where they advocate for increased immigration and as far as I could tell had no basis on their actual research. Our results provide a strong evidence-based counter to the politically motivated claim that declining/slow-growing and ageing populations in any way compromise national economic performance, income distribution, productivity, political stability, well-being, or health of its citizens. In fact, such populations generally have the highest socio-economic performance indicators in the world. This result supports the mounting evidence that smaller populations are in fact beneficial to most of society37, in sharp contrast to the unsubstantiated political rhetoric of ‘baby busts’ and an ensuing economic Armageddon1-5. This is because investing in the health, training, and education of workers — especially older, more experienced workers — increases human capital, making the workforce more productive29. Neither is there a basis for an expected penury of working-age people for countries experiencing low population growth or even decline. Labour shortages do not arise because of a lack of suitable workers, they occur instead because of inadequate immigration policies that limit or deny the movement of capable, working-age people from elsewhere to fill local demand70. Indeed, none of the existing credible population projections predicts a decline in the global population30,37,71-73.
|
|
| ▲ | amingilani 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > they occur instead because of inadequate immigration How did they make that assertion? In the body of the paper immigration policies were not included as a variable in the data, nor were they a part of the statistical analyses. I couldn't find anything regarding labor movement at all. It feels weird that it was just thrown there in the end. |
|
| ▲ | ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > This seems to weaken the entire paper. It is relative, no? If a nation's population decline isn't as high as another, maybe because of immigration, then they have more human resources? Also, humans tend to migrate? |
| |
| ▲ | jjk166 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If everyone around you is starving, it doesn't satisfy your own hunger. Your quality of life depends on absolute production output. |
|
|
| ▲ | mattlutze 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Perhaps you've misread the quote? It and your counter affirm each other. The quote suggests that there won't be labor shortages in markets that have adequate and adaptive immigration policies, because migration into a country with an aging population is how countries today maintain their labor pools. That the global population will continue to grow into 2100 supports their assertion that all countries should be more immigration friendly so as to reap the bi-directional benefit of available labor moving into geographies that need workers. |
|
| ▲ | Yoric 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Indeed, this specific sentence seems a bit odd. However, if there is one thing we're not lacking, it's crisis zones, where people are desperate to move away from if given half a chance. Given both the current rate of climate change and the current political climate, this is bound to increase, even after the global population peak. So I suspect that a lack of migrants willing to resettle to unaffected/less affected regions will not be a problem for the next few decades. |
|
| ▲ | Guthur 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's also extremely exploitative, the premise is actually that we will offload the burden of raising next generations and then effectively steal those that we need to prop up what would naturally be hollowing societies. |
| |
| ▲ | HankStallone 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, if the process works in the way it's being sold to us, it skims off their smartest, most talented and ambitious people--the people they most need to improve conditions in their own nations. | |
| ▲ | AlOwain 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No one is stealing anything, millions willingly immigrate, they get to live better lives (according to their desires) and the home country gets back increased trade, transfer of capital, tourism, and many other things. | | |
|
|
| ▲ | conclusiondoubt 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [dead] |
|
| ▲ | gotoeleven 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [flagged] |