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bsimpson 2 days ago

There was chatter about this in one of the NYC subreddits over the weekend.

Apparently ending the de minimus exemption is closing the grey market for e.g. sunscreen; places that used to sell Japanese sunscreens on American shelves no longer are.

There's a frustratingly long list of goods that the US decided to put requirements on in previous generations, and then stopped maintaining. Sunscreen is one; other countries have invented sunscreens that feel better on your skin than the old styles, but aren't yet approved in the US. Motorcycle helmets are another. You may have seen the MIPS system - the yellow slipliner that's become popular in bicycle helmets. Scientists have realized that rotational impact leads to concussions and similar brain damage, but prior helmets only protected against naive impacts. Europe now requires helmets to protect against rotational damage. The US requires that manufacturers self-assert that they meet a very old standard that ignores rotational impact. They do not recognize Europe's new standard.

Closing these de minimus exemptions is making it harder for discerning consumers to buy higher quality goods than are currently available in the US right now. Protectionists are going to see this as a win.

More background on helmet standards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76yu124i3Bo

ericmay 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Closing these de minimus exemptions is making it harder for discerning consumers to buy higher quality goods than are currently available in the US right now.

Everything has a trade-off.

On the other hand, it also prevents companies from dumping artificially cheap and crappy goods (TEMU) on US markets and making it nearly impossible for others to compete.

Unsuspecting consumers buy a super cheap (subsidized) crap product on Amazon or Temu or Shien or wherever - probably a knock-off of an American product, have it shipped to the US, then it disintegrates after a couple of uses or stops working, and we wind up with pollution, additional landfill, and relentless consumerism that's harmful to the country all so we can help a certain country whose name starts with a C keep the lights on and keep factories running so that they don't see unemployment numbers tick up.

Legitimate businesses selling higher quality products where they exist will be able to figure it out. Or not. It's not a big deal if your sunscreen is slightly worse than the Korean version (which I use). Maybe it just hasn't been approved because they haven't done the work to apply because they can get around working with our government and making sure their product meets our safety standards because of the de minimus loophole?

There's also safety concerns, which I think the CBP did a good job of overviewing here: https://www.cbp.gov/frontline/buyer-beware-bad-actors-exploi... . Send drugs or guns or illegal animal products to the US, get caught, who cares you live in (not the US) so you can just spin up another sham company and do it again.

Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

My counterexample is that I sell mid-high end vintage bicycle parts.

There’s about a 0% chance of Shimano or Campagnolo bringing that production to the US because they haven’t made this stuff in several decades.

I’ve now jacked my US shipping prices to account for tariffs. I’ll probably lose all US sales.

US buyers probably won’t realize that ~5-10% of its supply has disappeared for these parts. They also may not recognize that US sellers can/will raise their prices accordingly but they will have that increase in price.

Heck, I know some Canadian sellers that set up their supply chain well enough that they put down a US location and buyers think they’re buying domestic. Those will be toast (or have to vastly inflate their pricing).

bsimpson 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I bought a pair of motorcycle boots this way. It was a brand that isn't routinely imported into the US. The seller was a dealership near the Canadian border. It was something like they stocked them in London, Ontario and sold them from their Detroit subsidiary.

derivagral a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> buyers think they’re buying domestic

This is hard to tell from the discussion, but are you defending this practice?

phil21 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The tradeoff here is “pay the middleman markup tax” for the most part.

Instead of getting cheap Chinese made clothing for $5, you now get to pay Walmart $17 for the same thing.

If we are going to outsource production in order to save on consumer goods costs, the consumer should be the one reaping the surplus - not capital. Properly informed buyers were quite capable of getting quality product out of China for a tenth of the cost of exactly the same thing stocked on major retailer shelves here.

While there are certainly abuses of the current system, it would be best to close those loopholes vs. just give a bunch of profits to giant companies for effectively doing nothing more than having scale and volume. If you’re lucky they may do some curation too.

Not everything was Temu or Shein. Plenty of smaller factories basically going direct to consumer in a win win sort of scenario. They get paid more, and the customer doesn’t pay any middlemen.

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

> Instead of getting cheap Chinese made clothing for $5, you now get to pay Walmart $17 for the same thing.

Right... but now that is (arguably) cost competitive with American labor and manufacturing. Or at least it's more cost competitive than it otherwise would be.

I mean this is kind of the price of putting what we say first. Want higher minimum wages, higher environmental standards, unionized labor, benefits/healthcare, lunch breaks, etc.? We will have to pay more, and we should, for those things.

slipperydippery a day ago | parent | next [-]

> Right... but now that is (arguably) cost competitive with American labor and manufacturing. Or at least it's more cost competitive than it otherwise would be.

This won't work for clothes. We'd need Wal-mart shoppers to be spending like $400/outfit (incl. shoes) to even maybe bring those jobs back to the US. For clothes specifically, short of raising prices so much that the poorest few tens of a percent of the population are reduced to wearing shit-tier disposable clothes covered in also-cheap patches and often worn threadbare, shoes fully wrapped in duct-tape because the soles are practically gone, et c, there's no way you're bringing those jobs back. We'll just pay more for the exact same stuff, with few or no extra jobs as a trade-off.

Meanwhile, goods partially manufactured here (materials made here, finished elsewhere; materials foreign, construction domestic) will see price increases due to tariffs, which may harm sales, which may reduce employment. Between that and any broader economic down-turn resulting from these policies (can't buy as many things if prices are up, can't spend more on expensive US goods if your basics go up in price) I wouldn't be surprised if we see a bunch of the remaining US clothing manufacturers go out of business in the next few years. I have several brands I like that are already showing visible signs of distress (things like products lines being reduced, no new models showing up) and am worried I'll soon have almost no US clothes to choose from, due to these "protectionist" policies.

ericmay 21 hours ago | parent [-]

> This won't work for clothes

Says who? Also you're forgetting if we as a country decide hey this really doesn't work for clothing we can just lower the tariffs on clothing.

slipperydippery 21 hours ago | parent [-]

> Says who?

Uh, labor costs? I guess we could work to lower those, though. Like, a lot lower.

Meanwhile if the $2 wholesale-in-China shirt costs $30 on the shelf due to tariffs and the identical-quality US-made one costs $40 because that's just what it costs, the latter won't even be made, zero factories will start up to manufacture them. You'd have to raise prices a lot for it to make sense to even try, clothes are (relatively—still far less than once-upon-a-time, which is why the poor can afford to wear clothes that aren't third-hand and much-mended) labor-intensive despite lots of automation because machines remain terrible at manipulating cloth, despite decades of effort at solving that problem.

It's really expensive to make clothes in the US, and skimping on quality doesn't save all that much, percentage-wise. Being that they're also a necessity, we'd truly have to drive quality of life way down for a large chunk of the population to get that industry making low-end clothes.

ericmay 18 hours ago | parent [-]

American made t-shirts today don't even cost $30.

kalleboo 15 hours ago | parent [-]

What does "American made" mean? Is the raw fabric also made in America or is it just cut and sewn together in America?

ericmay 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Here is an example: https://www.allamericanclothing.com/collections/shirts/produ...

According to the website it’s compliant with the Berry Amendment, made in California, $15. From what I understand Berry Amendment “compliance” means all raw material and manufacturing is exclusively US sourced and US manufactured.

A quick comparison I saw was this:

  A “Made in USA” jacket could have fabric from China but still be assembled in the U.S.

  A Berry Compliant jacket must have U.S.-made fabric, thread, zippers, and even labels!
There’s a lot of different variations of these products in general and this is just one example.
donkeybeer a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You should trust people who live in countries that tariff a lot. You won't get quality crap. When tariffs cause the imported good to become equal to $200, the local good doesn't suddenly get cheaper it rises to match $180. Obviously any incentive that remained for local product to improve is now totally dashed too because of state forced back protection from competition. You end up paying multiple times the prices for the same shit sane countries buy much cheaper than you and life turns to shit, and the lower classes don't get better but end up loosing more money on the same crap.

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

I don't think we're comparing apples to apples though, and even so it's again just a trade-off we can make.

> the local good doesn't suddenly get cheaper it rises to match $180

Lowering prices isn't the goal, otherwise we could just export everything to (insert low-cost country here) and have products made as cheaply as possible regardless of working conditions or other considerations. The goal in part with tariffs would be to make it so that domestic products or products from friendly countries are cost competitive, not necessarily cheaper. Some folks just want the cheapest possible products and they don't care about any other issue. But that's just one factor among many for the nation. Some think that we should have lunch breaks and 40 hour work weeks and different environmental standards - that costs money and makes labor more expensive in countries like the United States.

I would disagree that there isn't an incentive to improve your local products, at least in the United States. The market here is big enough that we generally have competition regardless of whether or not competitors from other countries are participating in the market. But even so, it's not like competitors aren't participating in the market even with tariffs, it just changes the pricing calculations.

donkeybeer a day ago | parent [-]

And what will you get by making a crappy product artificially competitive? Its the same inferior product still, except you artificially forced the better stuff to be more expensive. Its absolutely hilarious seeing USA adopt policies of communist countries of the Latin America.

Wrong, as I said just ask countries like Brazil what happens when you tariff everything to shit and beyond. Brazil doesn't have chip fabs still and still has to pay a huge amount for phones and computers.

The answer to local industry being shit isn't to coddle it further, it is to scare the living shit out of them. Clearly in-country competition isn't enough, otherwise it'd already have been better than foreign goods. That's how capitalism succeeds, coddling them will only lead to overall crappy product and crappy life everywhere. I find it quite amusing this anti China rhetoric suddenly jumped up after in some areas Chinese getting superior to Americans. Hilarious really how much of a sore loser America is.

Enjoy and suffer shit goods at shittier prices. The tradeoff is you get fucked in both, in any countries that do tariffs. If one of the goals was to make life better for the lower classes, what will happen is that it won't, they'd be fucked even more being forced to pay more for the same stuff.

ericmay 21 hours ago | parent [-]

> And what will you get by making a crappy product artificially competitive?

I disagree with this characterization on at least two points:

The first is that you're assuming the product is crappy. Maybe it's actually quite good but just slightly more expensive for whatever reason, maybe that's unionization or something. Many people may opt to pay $6 less for a cheaper "thing" because they're not thinking about quality or wages or other factors. I know plenty of people who opt for buy-and-replace strategies because of "cheaper" products.

Second you're assuming that the cheap product isn't also artificially competitive. Other countries subsidize manufacturing or have lower wages or have other factors that lead to the product being cheaper than it should be.

> Its absolutely hilarious seeing USA adopt policies of communist countries of the Latin America.

I'm not sure protectionist policies are inherently communist, but to the extent they are I expect leftists to cheer these policies on.

> Enjoy and suffer shit goods at shittier prices.

Sounds good - stop bothering us about our crappy decisions then?

donkeybeer 21 hours ago | parent [-]

>Other countries subsidize manufacturing or have lower wages or have other factors that lead to the product being cheaper than it should be.

Then do the same for Americans. Make better product, don't force people to buy crappier.

Its not just about the buyer choosing a quality-price tradeoff. Let us be honest, the USA (or any other country) isn't the best in every sector. Artificial tariffs just mean your people will have to buy worse product. Again, its a slide to Latam style communism, absolutely hilarious.

I will even agree that a careful and targeted application of tariffs can help grow certain industries and can be a beneficial thing, but again careful and targeted is key, its a teat that they should be removed from in time. But what Trump is doing isn't remotely targeted or thought out.

The fact that you somehow are pegging me as a leftist and reacting emotionally to simple statements of fact show how incredibly stupid people who love tariffs are. Absolute comedy.

Tariffs are essentially a signal you are a loser, you can't do better so you force barriers on others. And I will maintain this for all countries that do it, whether its USA, Brazil or China. You are not showing strength by tariffs you are showing how weak you are. If I were thinking of investing in a weakening country, I might think otherwise now.

trimethylpurine 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>You are not showing strength by tariffs you are showing how weak you are.

Why does that matter?

donkeybeer 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Signals are important to pay attention to. Its not a nice thing to be weak as a country. It's alright if you think you need this or that tariff right now to prop up this or that key industry, but what happens over time if you continuously slide ever weaker. Its just a warning sign that must be paid heed to. A strong sector shouldn't need a tariff to survive. For better or worse your IT/tech sector is one of the good examples of a strong sector, to extent that other countries are trying to shield themselves from it's success. That should be the aspiration for the industry, not living under tariffs forever.

ericmay 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The fact that you somehow are pegging me as a leftist

I didn't mean to do that, and I apologize for that. I just meant that to the extent that you are associating tariffs with communism that those on the left will applaud Trump's tariffs and trade policies as they align with that ideology.

Though as an aside, you mention that we're sliding toward LATAM style communism (again I think it's mercantilism and not communism but whatever) but it seems to me that it's more so happening in the political sphere via Trump and his cronyism, not so much because of trade barriers.

> Then do the same for Americans. Make better product, don't force people to buy crappier.

A t-shirt is a t-shirt. At some point we're not really talking about making a better product, but we're instead talking about the costs associated with making that product. Instead of phrasing this as "buy the cheaper product" or "buy the better product" it should instead be looked at as "buy the product that is more environmentally friendly (shipping, environmental standards, etc.)" or "buy the product that supports higher American wages and 40 hour work weeks".

These are all just trade-offs and policy decisions. If you gave me the choice between buy American made t-shirt for $20 [1] or buy the made in (insert country) shirt for $5 - I would buy the American one every time because the price isn't the only factor.

For a long time we've focused on price only, but the prices on the shelves are not necessarily the only consideration, they're just the easiest one for people to make and we don't have other clear and obvious incentives right at the point of sale to help someone make a decision - was the (insert country here) product made by a despotic regime hellbent on assaulting your way of life - is that on the sticker? Or is it some harmless text hidden away that says "Made in Country X".

Efficient markets are great, but they're not the point of society, just another thing we decide how much or how little we want of.

[1] https://www.allamericanclothing.com/collections/shirts/produ...

donkeybeer 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Quality is to an extent a personal function, each person may have a different idea of what factors to consider in quality. But the word here is personal, I find it highly unpleasant when a state uses its might so transparently to force these choices.

You should also not discount price. You can afford to, I can afford to buy something more expensive because we consider some other aspects of the item more important. Again, if you had said this in terms of simply propping up a local even if less efficient industry alive, it makes sense, redundancy is a concept I can understand of course, I could have accepted it even if I don't agree fully. But I feel if it is presented as making the life of lower and middle classes easier, it is a total lie since they will be impacted most by these price increases. Some T-shirt firm in America will start earning more, but then where do the people of that firm spend it on? The other firms are also now higher priced if we fully commit to such extreme and wide ranging tariff programs. I am sorry if I come across as a bit vigorous in this, but I have seen how it is in high tariff countries so I have a strong feeling on this matter.

ericmay 17 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

mlyle 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> We will have to pay more, and we should, for those things.

No. US labor costs are high and working conditions are better, in large part, because US labor is worth it and US productivity is high. That labor is spent in high value industries and is often highly skilled.

We should accept we're better at some things and trade according to the principle of comparative advantage.

macawfish 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is more like setting `trade: off`.

ljsprague 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>the Korean version (which I use)

Beauty of Joseon?

ericmay 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yea that’s what I use!

bigyabai 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and we wind up with pollution, additional landfill, and relentless consumerism that's harmful to the country

But that happens regardless of whether or not you import manufactured goods, doesn't it?

nluken 2 days ago | parent [-]

You're not going to get new clothing for TEMU prices without the de minimis exception. In theory, the higher price of these goods will decrease the amount they're purchased and lessen impact of pollution.

As others in this thread point out, though, there are other casualties of this change.

Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent [-]

Temu should already be paying the tariffs on China-origin goods. De minims for China origin stuff ended May 2nd.

Unless they’re sending it all via China Post and US CBP is letting it pass through anyway. Anecdotally, most of their stuff in major cities is arriving by Gig couriers or from US warehouses (ie: not postal imports) = tariffs applied.

Where Temu and big retailers win the game is that they can structure it to exclude last-mile delivery/logistic cost in their tariff calculations, and that’s a lot of the price.

voxl a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Everything does not have a tradeoff. This philosophy alone is bullshit.

prime_ursid a day ago | parent [-]

Sometimes the tradeoff is that someone gets richer / inflates their ego while most people’s lives get worse in a tangible way.

johnbrodie 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The DOT standard isn't good, but the US doesn't disallow helmets that meet other standards. You can buy Bell and Alpinestars MIPS helmets in the US today, no gray market needed: https://www.revzilla.com/mips-motorcycle-helmets

bsimpson 2 days ago | parent [-]

You're on a tangent of a tangent, but:

Old school helmets use the philosophy that in a crash, you want your head to be harder than its opponent.

New school helmet use the philosophy that a helmet should absorb or deflect as much energy as possible, so that energy doesn't get translated to your brain.

They are actually diametrically opposed. Fortnine (the same channel I linked earlier) has a video on the SNELL standard. Its origins are as a beefier version of the DOT standard. They recently found themselves at a crossroads where it's impossible to both meet SNELL and meet ECE 22.06 (today's state-of-the-art standard). They ended up bifurcating SNELL into two standards: one that meets old DOT-based SNELL, and another that basically says "if it's 22.06, they can call it SNELL variant B." It was the only way they could keep the SNELL brand alive across both halves of the transition.

harrydehal a day ago | parent [-]

"The Snell Helmet Standard is Meaningless"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76yu124i3Bo

trenchpilgrim a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The motorcycle helmet part of this comment is misleading. I can walk down the street to cycle gear and buy an ECE 22.06 rated helmet with MIPS. This is because ECE is a strict superset of DOT, so companies just sell the ECE version in the US with a DOT sticker added on. (I have spoken to the helmet companies about this directly - most respond to a quick email.)

It's not like ECE vs SNELL where the standards are incompatible.

dehugger 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I work for a company that owns three different helmet brands. All of them sell MIPS helmets on our US ecomm websites and have for years. In fact, one saved from what could have been a severe injury this spring (a car pulled in front of me while I was riding an electric scooter at speed).

You dont need to do anything special to get a MIPS helmet in the US.

throwawa5 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Apparently ending the de minimus exemption is closing the grey market for e.g. sunscreen; places that used to sell Japanese sunscreens on American shelves no longer are.

Stylevana, where I go for my Japanese/Korean sunscreen and skincare, is still shipping to the US as far as I can tell.

andrewinardeer 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Do they use Japan Post?

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The funny thing about MIPS is that it makes the same helmet safer, but it might have been a garbage helmet to begin with.

Throwing away your non-MIPS helmet and replacing it with a MIPS may be a safety-reducing decision, unless you’re buying the exact same model.

solardev 2 days ago | parent [-]

For anyone who wants more data, Virginia Tech runs a helmet impact testing lab and publishes results and rankings: https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent [-]

If we used a similar methodology for testing cars, we’d be blasting watermelon heads from a cannon against windshields and sacks of potatoes against steering wheels.

We’d benefit from more realistic models. But I guess our helmets would then cost $500.

0xffff2 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What does a good motorcycle helmet cost these days? I paid $500 for my then top of the line helmet circa 2010. Haven't ridden in over a decade but I'm surprised by the implication that helmets _don't_ cost $500.

trenchpilgrim 18 hours ago | parent [-]

You can get a very safe ECE 22.06 rated helmet for $100-150. The more expensive helmets are lighter, more comfortable, have cool designs, and nice stuff like transitions visors or Pinlock anti-fog, but aren't really any safer until you get into FIM fhpre-02 rated helmets for MotoGP racing. (fhpre-01 is functionally identical to ECE 22.06)

The days of having to shell out $600 for an Arai or Shoei for superior protection are past us.

0xffff2 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Wow. That's awesome! My helmet back in the day was indeed a Shoei. I don't recall for sure, but I don't think it was even the absolute most expensive model at the time, but it was about the cheapest helmet I felt comfortable trusting my life too.

solardev a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Is the methodology that bad? What's wrong with it?

From their test protocol (https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/5e7...), it looks like they simulate a fall (with a model head inside it) against a target at an oblique angle, at six different impact locations and two speeds each. They go through 4 of each helmet model for the rest.

It seems a lot better than nothing (which is what we had before them, at least outside of manufacturers own private tests). Their research was initially funded by the IIHS, the group that does the highway crash tests.

How would you like to see it improved?

jq-r a day ago | parent | next [-]

I think the obvious problems is that majority of riders actually have hair and from my experience the chin strap isn’t very very tightly strapped (you want to speak normally I suppose).

Hair gives you considerable slip area making the inner rotational liners redundant or maybe even too much.

trenchpilgrim a day ago | parent [-]

> from my experience the chin strap isn’t very very tightly strapped

Not on a motorcycle helmet! The double D ring system forces you to cinch it tight, and it does not restrict your jaw or make it hard to talk.

If you are experiencing this your helmet may be the wrong size. Most riders are picking helmets that are far too large.

jq-r a day ago | parent [-]

I was talking about the bicycle helmets though, I should have been clearer.

trenchpilgrim a day ago | parent [-]

Oh yeah, most bicycle helmets seem to be stuck 20 years in the past. I mostly use MTB or skate helmets instead.

Scoundreller a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Crash test dummy on a mechanized bicycle falling off/hitting stuff.

mritterhoff 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thanks for sharing info about MIPS, it looks great.

Short animation of how it works for anyone else who's unfamiliar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvyoSzAPIBE

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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ivape 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Americans don't fully understand what a pain in the ass it is for people in other countries to buy whatever they want. They are always paying some additional amount, if it's even available.

Gud 2 days ago | parent [-]

Not really the case in at least Europe and the gulf states

trimethylpurine 19 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not sure it's the same as what GP is saying. Maybe anecdotal, but living in Italy I had a very hard time finding a lot of things. Even getting basic mail delivery was pretty difficult. Same with Spain, to varying degrees.

As another example, visiting the Netherlands, it would take a week to get a decent child car seat delivered last year.

Comparing with the US, it's night and day. I can order something at 6AM and it's at my doorstep by 10AM. And the number of goods that are offered at that speed is absolutely astonishing.

As a side note, what the US has done to the shopping experience may not be preferable when considering all related effects on the market, happiness, etc. But it certainly sets a very high bar if you are comparing to Europe.

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention that all of this magical instant delivery is free!

Muromec 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's an interesting way to approach regulation.

93po 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

i appreciate you mentioning MIPS - i had no idea there was a new, better standard, and i'll definitely get one for my next helmet (motorcycle)

bsimpson 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

MIPS is actually pretty rare in motorcycles helmets. I know Bell makes a helmet with it, but the premium helmets tend to come up with their own solutions to the same problem.

ECE 22.06 is the standard to look for for rotational protection in 2025.

93po 2 days ago | parent [-]

thanks!

Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

MIPS isn’t a standard, but an enhancement (and there is some argument that its benefits are overstated: e.g. you’ll get some beneficial slippage in your helmet if it isn’t as tight as possible, if you have hair, or if the thing you hit is more slippery than asphalt)

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45018181

jq-r a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

MIPS AB is actually a company, known for predatory patent lawsuits. They've used clever marketing to make MIPS the technology desireable and in my opinion totally unnecessary, or maybe even outright more dangerous for majority of bike riders.

trenchpilgrim a day ago | parent | prev [-]

MIPS is a technology, not a standard. There are other technologies for rotational trrauma protection.

The current best standard for consumers is ECE 22.06.

stefan_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

De minimis makes no sense and the EU doesn't have it either - in fact they recently managed to even make the Chinese properly fill out the tax forms and in most cases prepay it.

warpspin 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> De minimis makes no sense and the EU doesn't have it either

You're conflating tax with tariffs here. EU does not have a de minimis rule for tax - you always pay tax on import - but it does have a 150 Euro de minimis rule for tariffs.

hypeatei 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This comment was very informative, thanks. It's really disappointing to see a seemingly new wave of people cheering on isolationism/protectionism.

Maybe some have valid concerns for certain products that we don't make ourselves (e.g. semiconductors) but Trump and his cronies are not the solution to that at all.

pessimizer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't understand the argument that it's bad that the government is suppressing grey markets in goods that aren't approved in the US.

I get it from a selfish point of view, as in I want a particular helmet and I think the design is safer, so I'm upset when I can't have it at the price I want it. I don't understand it as a political argument. If our government isn't meant to do anything, shut it down entirely. Don't have processes and subvert them so everybody can do what they want when they want.

Who would you vote for to get rules broken whenever they stop you from doing what you want, and why would anybody else vote for that person?

That being said, I deeply understand that the science and regulation around any sort of helmeting in the US (also in the case of motorcycles) is completely compromised by the people who sell helmets. The way you fix that is by fixing regulatory processes, not making rules easier to break for connected, smart, wealthy people. If you think fixing regulatory processes is an absurd, naïve impossibility, shut the government down and stop complaining about trivialities.

hypeatei 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The government can't solve for everything at all times. That's why free markets exist and are important. You could have the best most awesome helmet safety regulation get passed on Friday and have it completely blown up by a new discovery on Monday. How long will it take for regulators to catch up?

> The way you fix that is by fixing regulatory processes

Well, that kinda hand waves away a lot of the roadblocks you run into with government and elected officials. In an ideal world, yes, we have regulatory and legislative bodies that can react quickly and do the right thing everytime but that isn't reality.

bsimpson 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Two things are happening at the same time.

On the one hand, government is broken writ large. It's been dominated by politicians who care more about power than improvement for as long as I've been alive. The problem becomes worse and feels more intractable every year. I'm not convinced there's anything individuals can practically do to help resolve it. (Those in power would ruin your life if you actually did a good job at making the world better in a way that impinged on their power.)

On the other hand, technology is enabling rules to be enforced in a more automated way. You see this with speed cameras, and now also with these stricter shipping requirements.

These rules were written to have an exhaust valve: for speed limits, that's police discretion. For imports, that's the de minimus exemption. Nobody cares what individuals do; they care what markets do (which is part of why bans are usually bans on selling, not on owning).

I touched on this a little bit about self-driving cars the other day too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44987516

The ratcheting of rules into automated policy is dystopian.

wan23 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Grey markets aren't the same black markets. Ideally the government would be omniscient, efficient, and benevolent so that it could properly regulate things to the benefit of the masses, but in practice it government isn't very responsive and in many cases has to consider different viewpoints on an issue. Even worse, regulations usually create winners and losers in a way where even if it's beneficial to change the regulation, whoever would lose out will automatically be opposed to the change. Americans - mostly working and middle class, not wealthy - bought 50+ billions of dollars of goods imported this way last year. The American people have voted with their wallets but the government is not responsive to their desires in this case.

estimator7292 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You can have either a free market or a market tightly controlled by a government plus all the cronyism that entails.

We generally refer to the latter option as "communism"

schmookeeg 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ignoring the massive political elephant that exists in all of this stuff -- isn't this a good trigger, as demand for the "updated standards" products will force these companies (or resellers of these products) to either validate their products for sale in the US or force the US to recognize these EU standards?

I suppose an immediate counterpoint is that the US Consumer seems unwilling to clamor for high-quality products. :/

bsimpson 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

If motorcyclists had the power to demand common sense policy improvements, filtering would be legal everywhere, and cities would start adding PTW (powered two-wheels: motorbikes and e-bikes) lanes alongside the current acoustic bike lanes.

It's a relatively small constituency. Most politicians don't want to upset the status quo to advocate for them. A lot of non-riders have enough negative experience (hearing scary stories or being startled by delivery drivers working within the current system) to actively add friction to the conversation.

For instance, NYC's current chief-of-police is a nepobaby. Her mom is a high society type who is afraid of bicycles, so the police have been actively abd specifically harassing cyclists this year.

schmookeeg 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, after I posted (and disappointed a few people apparently) I was thinking about just how sticky this stuff really is, and how our political system is a "broad brush" system. It seems to muddle a lot of the smaller sensible details.

Thought-provoking for sure. I'm glad I ride in a filtering-legal state :)

Rebelgecko 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

For sunscreen, they just make a separate less effective version for the US market. The market of people who would say "well, I won't buy sunscreen at all unless it's as good as foreign variants at blocking UV-A rays" is pretty small.

slipperydippery a day ago | parent [-]

The real harm of the sunscreen thing is that the FDA being weirdly far behind the rest of the OECD at approving new agents means we're stuck with stuff that's a pain to apply and feels gross to wear. This harms health, because people will be less consistent about applying and re-applying when it takes more time than it might, and when the product feels nasty on the skin.

Many grey-market imported sunscreens apply in like 1/4 the time of US ones, feel like nothing at all once rubbed in, don't leave your hands feeling oily and like you need to scrub hard with soap and water right after applying, and have almost no odor. We're like decades behind on that tech, for reasons that I don't understand.