> ref counting still has worse throughout than a tracing GC, even if it is single-threaded, and doesn't have to use atomic instructions. This may or may not matter, I'm not claiming it's worse, especially when used very rarely as is the case with typical c++/rust programs.

That’s a bold claim to make that doesn’t seem to actually be true from my experience. Your 5ghz CPU can probably do ~20 billion non atomic reference adjustments whereas your GC system has to have atomics all over the place or it won’t work and atomics have parasitic performance on unrelated code due to bus locks and whatnot.

> Java can also do on-stack replacement.. sometimes

That’s not what this is. It’s called hybrid RC and it applies always provided you follow the rules.

> The point is not that manual memory can't be faster/more efficient. It's that it is not free, and comes at a non-trivial extra effort on developers side, which is not even a one-time thing, but applies for the lifetime of the program.

The argument here is not about developer productivity - the specific claim is that the Java GC lets you write higher throughput code than you would get with Rust or C++. That just isn’t true so you end up sacrificing throughput AND latency AND peak memory usage. You may not care and are fine with that tradeoff, but claiming you’re not making that tradeoff is not based on the facts.

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gf000 2 days ago | parent [-]

> the specific claim is that the Java GC lets you write higher throughput code than you would get with Rust or C++

No, that has never been the specific claim - you can always write more efficient code with manual memory management, given enough time, effort and skill. I wasn't even the one who brought up c++ and rust. Like literally I write this twice in my comment.

What I'm talking about is reference counting as a GC technique vs tracing as a GC technique, all else being equal - it would be idiotic to compare these two if no other "variable" is fixed. (Oh and I didn't even mention the circular references problem, which means you basically have to add a tracing step either-way unless you restrict your language so that it can't express circular stuff).

As for the atomic part, sure, if all it would do is non-atomic increments then CPUs would be plenty happy. And you are right that depending on how the tracing GC is implemented, it will have a few atomic instructions. What you may miss is how often each run. On almost every access, vs every once in a while on a human timescale. Your OS scheduler will also occasionally trash the performance of your thread. But this is the actually apples to oranges comparison, and both techniques can do plenty of tweaks to hide certain tradeoffs, at the price of something else.

And I also mention that the above triad of time, skill and effort is not a given and is definitely not free.

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vlovich123 2 days ago | parent [-]

In Rust there’s no forcing of any specific garbage collection mechanism. You’re free to do whatever and there’s many high performance crates to let you accomplish this. Even in Swift this is opt-in.

As for “skill” this is one thing that’s super hard to optimize for. All I can do is point to existence proofs that there’s no mainstream operating system, browser or other piece of high performance code written in Java and it’s all primarily C/C++ with some assembly with Rust starting to take over the C/C++ bits. And at the point where you’re relegating Java to being “business” logic, there’s plenty of languages that are better suited for that in terms of ergonomics.

	▲	gf000 a day ago \| parent [-]
		Sure, but I think that people often fall into the trap of imagining a problem that nicely fits a RAII model, where each lifetime is statically knowable. This is either due to having a specific problem, or because we decided on a specific constraint. Java is used in HFT (well, there are two types of "high frequency", one where general purpose CPUs are already too slow, where it obviously doesn't apply (neither do rust or c++)) - but sure, I wouldn't write a runtime or other piece of code in Java where absolute control over the hardware is required. But that's a small niche only. What about large distributed systems/algorithms? Why is Java over-represented in this niche (e.g. Kafka, Elasticsearch, etc)? > And at the point where you’re relegating Java to being “business” logic, there’s plenty of languages that are better suited for that in terms of ergonomics. That's subjective.