| ▲ | shadowgovt 3 days ago |
| Mississippi would have a hell of a time convincing every ISP in the US to put up a firewall too. They could try, but not even China could build an impregnable firewall. |
|
| ▲ | ajb 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| They don't have to go after all of them, they just have to make an example of one. See: qwest's Joseph Nacchio: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio |
| |
| ▲ | devmor 3 days ago | parent [-] | | God, Nacchio's story is infuriating. "Sorry, you can't use this evidence that exonerates you - it would be bad for the government." |
|
|
| ▲ | nemomarx 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you get 75% coverage (or let's say the 5 biggest ISPs here, comcast and so on) you don't need to really chase the long tail of small providers that hard. It would effectively be unavailable to non technical people at that point. |
| |
| ▲ | TheDauthi 3 days ago | parent [-] | | AT&T, Comcast, C-Spire. I don't know anyone who is on anything else here unless it's through a university. |
|
|
| ▲ | avs733 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| six months ago I would have said the same thing about US universities. |
| |
| ▲ | terminalshort 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Universities? The primary revenue source for basically 100% of US universities is the federal government. The concept of a private university in the US is little more than a legal technicality. |
|
|
| ▲ | irusensei 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I heard from a friend that went to China and the hotel staff right away asks if they want to VPN their room. |
| |
|
| ▲ | throwaway290 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > They could try, but not even China could build an impregnable firewall. They can learn from Russia. Censorship in Russia now surpassed China. TSPU are now in every ISP facility. They pass all traffic through them and allow arbitrary bans of specific resources/protocols/etc in specific cities or whole regions. |
|
| ▲ | immibis 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| They don't need to. If only 1% of the people are able to access censored content and therefore hold censored ideas, the majority will treat them as crazy pariahs. It's the same mechanism that makes us consider the 1% of flat earthers crazy. Sadly the mechanism works based on how many people believe a thing, not whether it's true, so it can also block true things if only 1% of people believe them. |
| |
| ▲ | shkkmo 3 days ago | parent [-] | | We think flat earthers are crazy because it is a fairly trivial thing to prove them wrong. If you believe something that is that easily disproved AND widely understood to be so, there is clearly something wrong with you. | | |
| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | We don't think that people who think there's a bearded man in heaven are crazy, even if that's crazier than thinking earth is flat. We don't think they are crazy because they are not 1%, they are majority. Most people think flat earthers are crazy not because they proved them wrong. Just most people around them think flat earthers are crazy and that's enough. | | |
| ▲ | Loughla 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | No we think flat earthers are crazy because it's trivial to prove wrong, whereas religious belief is a matter of faith that can't really be proven one way or the other, regardless of how silly the belief is. They're just different. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There is no way to prove that the earth isn't actually flat but every observation conspires to make it look round. For instance some flat earthers say that the atmosphere reflects light in the exact way that makes it look round. Take any phenomena on a globe earth, describe the exact same thing in flat earth coordinates and then say that everything weird in the equations is a new physical effect you just discovered. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > describe the exact same thing in flat earth coordinates and then say that everything weird in the equations is a new physical effect you just discovered …which have other consequences that are easily disproven. Flat earthers are empirical cosplayers. It mostly seems they just want something to argue about and couldn’t come
up with anything original. | |
| ▲ | pcthrowaway 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't believe I've seen a flat earther explanation of foucalt's pendulum yet, but perhaps they have one | | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Until you travel around the world? Try that on a flat disc. | |
| ▲ | shadowgovt 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's a void argument. If every observation conspires to make it look round, it's round because observation is all we have. Refusing to accept observational evidence that forms a coherent explanation is either anti-science or anti-definition-of-words. This justification for flat earth exits the realm of scientific inquiry and enters the realm of Cartesian evil demons, a hypothesis even Descartes rejected. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Well yes, nobody who truly believes in scientific inquiry believes the earth is flat. But that just pushes the problem one meta-level deeper: people who don't believe in scientific inquiry are shunned only because 99% of people do, not because it's better even though it is better, and if 99% of people opposed scientific inquiry the situation would reverse. (it is reversing in the USA) |
| |
| ▲ | shkkmo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Take any phenomena on a globe earth, describe the exact same thing in flat earth coordinates and then say that everything weird in the equations is a new physical effect you just discovered. You can't actually do that in an internally consistent way. (Or atleast I've never seen it.) It isn't only interally incosistent but those theories also break down if you look at them too closely. That's why so much of flat earthism relies on conspiracy theories that are used to justify ignoring phenomena rather than actually investigating it. |
| |
| ▲ | throwaway290 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > No we think flat earthers are crazy because it's trivial to prove wrong, whereas religious belief is a matter of faith that can't really be proven one way or the other, regardless of how silly the belief is. that you even say this may show how you learned to live with it because majority around you believes it and your human brain considers it suicide to go against the tribe. (Or maybe you believe it yourself) it's trivial to prove there's no heaven or hell. Maybe as trivial as disprove flat earth. Flat earth is very similar to religion. It's a belief. It perpetuates because people around you believe in flat earth and if you tell them how they are crazy then you will be outcast and lose friends and family. And hey spoiler alert this is the same reason you don't call religion crazy, because anywhere in the world 99% you have religious friends or family (except maybe north korea or china, then replace religion with dictator cult). Flat earthers are just unlucky because they are very small minority | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Who cares about the tribe? I have no issue saying I think religion is BS. I don't care if I lose friends over that tbh. I just don't normally do so because a) it won't change their mind and b) I don't care what they believe. I still think it's crazy but that's fine. Everyone is a bit crazy anyway. And c) I prefer focusing on common ground than contradictions. But tribes are overrated in this day and age. If you don't fit in you can just find another one that you do gel with. This changes over time too. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You and everyone except psychopaths cares about tribes even if you don't think you do. Tribe = society. Social exclusion = death. You can find new friends thanks to internet. Flat earthers and religious communities have more strong relations IRL than us here | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 a day ago | parent [-] | | Well what I mean is it doesn't matter if you piss off your tribe these days because you can just find another one that aligns better with you instead. No need to fake it to fit in. This is what's so great about today's globalised society and internet. There's always people like you somewhere within reach. I could totally not live in a small country town where I'd be forced to pretend to be religious and care about sports. And I'm into other stuff like polyamory that small communities tend to hate. So yeah that would be hell for me. I probably would end up excluded. I also tend to change pretty radically every few years or so. Including finding a new country to live, new hobbies etc. So I have few long term ties anyway. I like it like that. I tend to feel trapped in too stable situations. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 a day ago | parent [-] | | You are a sociopath. This tends to reduce with age. Trust me for normies it's an insane scenario. You seem to be specifically trying to show how you're not like most people, so in a way you support my point! > So yeah that would be hell for me. I probably would end up excluded. Why hell, if you don't have ties anyway and you are fine? You are contradicting yourself > I also tend to change pretty radically every few years or so. Including finding a new country to live, new hobbies etc. So I have few long term ties anyway. I like it like that. I tend to feel trapped in too stable situations. Yeah so if your long term ties were religious or flat earth you would likely be that too. Because people don't usually fuck with long term ties. Re my point | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Hmm maybe I am a sociopath then. One thing though is that I do respect other people a lot. I just won't bend my identity to fit in. If we don't gel I don't fight them but I'll just leave. But yeah if that makes me a sociopath that's fine, I am what I am :3 I'm not young by the way. I would mind being excluded, like I said I do have communities, I just find them to fit me not change me to fit them. Most communities I'm in are also super open and accepting of that anyway. In a small town this would be difficult obviously, and things like poly and lgbt are more hated there. > Yeah so if your long term ties were religious or flat earth you would likely be that too. My parents were religious when I was young. They had me baptised. But by the time more stuff had to happen (communion I think?) I had already decided I hated religion and wanted nothing to do with it. My parents were ok with that. My grandparents were pretty pissed because they were really catholic but I always hated that side of the family anyway. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | shkkmo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > it's trivial to prove there's no heaven or hell. You're conflating physics and metaphysics. > Flat earth is very similar to religion You seem to have a beef to pick with religion. There are religious groups that do function similar to flat earthers, but that isn't true of all religious groups and many of the smartest and open minded people in history have been religious. If anything, by making this comparison you are legitimizing idiocy. There's a big difference between taking a position on unknowable metaphysical topics and refusing to recognize or even look at evidence when presented to you. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If you think I am legitimizing flat earthers you really don't get the point. I am just saying that for 90% of people belief in this or that mostly dictated by people around them. > unknowable metaphysical topics religious people often conveniently shift goalposts to make sure what they say is always beyond knowable. We launched satellites and found no heaven above? fine, it exists in some other way. No soul detected? our technology is not good enough. Flat earthers do almost the same thing just they use conspiracy theories instead. If you want to find a difference between religion and flat earther theory, Christianity for example (not sure this applies to all religions) is supposedly helping humans live together better, like: be kind, do to others what you want be done to you, don't steal/kill/rape etc. But that's not really related to how it's proven or factual. | | |
| ▲ | shkkmo 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > religious people often conveniently shift goalposts It isn't "shifting goal posts"...It's called updating your beliefs when the evidence proves them wrong. Many religions have a strong history of doing this and it is something that flat earthers don't do. > Flat earthers do almost the same thing just they use conspiracy theories instead. If you don't understand the epistemological difference, you should try educating yourself. There is quite a bit of scholarly work on this... |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | wkat4242 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > We don't think that people who think there's a bearded man in heaven are crazy, even if that's crazier than thinking earth is flat. Um speak for yourself. I think most of us atheists do think that but we're too polite to not say it. Besides, it won't change anything so there's no point. | | |
| ▲ | shkkmo 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Equating flat earthism with religion is just ignorant. They are not epistemologically equivalent. Normalizing flat earth beliefs like this is actively harmful. |
|
|
|
|
