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sgnelson 3 days ago

Everyone is talking about "bailouts" and "owning a company that the government funds."

This isn't about that at all. This is about the breakdown of the rule of law, a unitary executive bypassing all other branches of government and demanding a private enterprise give itself over to the government.

If you don't think there was an "or else" as part of this deal, you're largely mistaken. If you don't think that there will be other questionalbe demands placed on Intel in the future from this government, you are largely mistaken.

But y'all go ahead and can keep arguing over whether we should "get something back" from this deal. Because that's really going to maker ameraica graet agian.

thisisit 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

“National security” is often used by third world countries to nationalise companies and industries. Often with a bad outcome.

Once the money is in, government becomes invested in the success of the company. This leads to preferential policies and government demands for the invested company. I think it is safe to say that US is going full on third world strong man government at this point.

rayiner 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unfortunately, this ship sailed quite some time ago. For example, after the 2008 financial crisis, the Senate rejected a proposed bailout of GM. But Bush approved it anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_2008%E2%80%9320...

> However, it had been argued that the Treasury lacked the statutory authority to direct TARP funds to the automakers, since TARP is limited to "financial institutions" under Section 102 of the TARP. It was also argued that providing TARP funds to automaker's financing operations, such as GMAC, runs counter to the intent of Congress for limiting TARP funds to true "financial institutions".[79] On December 19, 2008, President Bush used his executive authority to declare that TARP funds may be spent on any program he personally deems necessary to avert the financial crisis, and declared Section 102 to be nonbinding.

Also, “unitary executive” doesn’t mean overriding other branches. It just means that whatever powers the executive branch does or does not have are exercised by the President, just like the 535 members of Congress exercise all the powers of Congress, and the 9 Justices exercise all of the powers of the Supreme Court. It means that executive branch employees don’t have independent powers, just as House staffers and Supreme Court law clerks don’t have independent powers.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._70 (“Federalist No. 70 emphasizes the unitary structure of the executive. The strong executive must be unitary, Hamilton says, because ‘unity is conducive to energy...[d]ecision, activity, secrecy, and dispatch will generally characterize the proceedings of one man in a much more eminent degree than the proceedings of any greater number.’”).

cma 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Also, “unitary executive” doesn’t mean overriding other branches. It just means that whatever powers the executive branch does or does not have are exercised by the President,

And then you find the executive is what chooses to enforce rulings against the executive. They were not trying to set up something like the UN security council with a defacto veto on all passed law.

rayiner 2 days ago | parent [-]

> And then you find the executive is what chooses to enforce rulings against the executive

Correct. But this is true in almost any conceivable system. The entity charged with enforcing the law will be charged with enforcing the law against itself. “Who watches the watchers?” The founders thought of that and their solution to that was elections and a relatively short 4-year term.

Conceiving of the executive as having subparts independent of the elected executive actually breaks the system. Because now, whatever subpart you assign the law enforcement function is unelected and insulated from political accountability. Now, nobody can watch the watchers!

It turns out the founders were smarter than the current facility of Harvard Law School.

anon84873628 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Also, “unitary executive” doesn’t mean overriding other branches

I feel we're headed for a No True Scotsman fallacy. The Trump Regime and Roberts court endorse the unitary executive theory, and they are happily overriding Article 1 powers and violating laws like the Administrative Procedures Act based on this theory's farcical and ahistorical logic.

If the theory wasn't giving him more power (like firing non-political appointees without cause or withholding funds appropriated by Congress) he wouldn't be using it.

rayiner 3 days ago | parent [-]

The "unitary executive theory" is just a pejorative label for Article II, Section 1, Clause 1: "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." Alexander Hamilton talks about it in Federalist 70: "I rarely met with an intelligent man from any of the States, who did not admit, as the result of experience, that the UNITY of the executive of this State was one of the best of the distinguishing features of our constitution." (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed70.asp).

Nobody called it a "theory" until FDR appointees ginned up a fourth branch of government in the 20th century. Then, they needed a label for what actually existed in the constitution to distinguish it from the shit they just made up. But most of the people who use the phrase "unitary executive theory" also think "emanations from penumbras" is constitutional law...

Also, the APA doesn't apply to the President, and it wouldn't be constitutional for it to do so.

apical_dendrite 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What Trump is doing is pure extortion. Intel gives up equity, and in exchange, Trump maybe doesn't use the massive power of the state to claw back billions of dollars that were legally awarded to Intel, and Trump stops pressuring Intel to fire their CEO (note how he now calls the CEO "highly respected").

The comparison to the GM bailout makes no sense. GM got something that it needed from the bailout. Here, all Intel is getting is the withdrawal of threats that Trump himself made. It's mob boss style government, and it's happening to many institutions in this country (law firms, universities, corporations, etc). Why you would want to try to normalize it is utterly beyond me. Maybe you just like being the "well actually" guy because you think it makes you sound smarter than everyone else.

rayiner 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I’m not a “well actually” guy, I’m a constitutional fundamentalist. It’s definitionally not extortion to threaten to do something you have a legal right to do. The CHIPs Act gave the executive a bunch of money for making discretionary grants. And that means the President has a bunch of money to make discretionary grants.

Also, why should we give companies money without getting equity?

hollerith 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>Maybe you just like being the "well actually" guy because you think it makes you sound smarter than everyone else.

He's a lawyer at the Federal bar, so on the subject under discussion he is more knowledgeable than most of us.

acdha a day ago | parent [-]

Knowledge doesn’t override partisanship. Rayiner used to be a thoughtful voice here but, like many other Republicans, in the age of Trump personal fealty outranks knowledge or past principles.

rayiner a day ago | parent [-]

I've believed the administrative state is unconstitutional since I took admin law in law school (when I was a Democrat).

jauntywundrkind 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> unitary executive bypassing all other branches of government

Is there even a pretence of a law being cited by the White House?

3 days ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
edge17 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

...thats how the US Constitution works. Congress passes laws (CHIPS Act) and the executive branch is empowered to carry them out - in this case the Secretary of Commerce and Commerce Dept. One can argue whether it stretches the intent of the law, nothing wrong with debate. But as of now, I don't think any judge or court has contested in the interpretation of the language.

cududa 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Which part of the CHIPS act says companies receiving funds have to give the government 10% of the company to continue receiving funds?

edge17 3 days ago | parent [-]

Section 9902 of the act authorizes the Secretary of Commerce to provide financial assistance to "covered entities"

One can argue how to interpret "financial assistance" broadly, which is exactly what the administration has done.

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> One can argue how to interpret "financial assistance" broadly

The money was already granted. Trump threatened the CEO personally and then they came to this agreement ex post facto.

re-thc 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> One can argue how to interpret "financial assistance" broadly, which is exactly what the administration has done

You can? So some years later they can change it again? Where's the trust?

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-]

The takeaway is the next Democrat president should just declare a public transit emergency and start building while the courts squabble. Same for housing reform. Same for climate change and shutting down coal power plants—once you shut it down and take out the turbines, it doesn’t matter what the courts say.

boroboro4 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, they should.

However in case of democrats president Supreme Court will be surprisingly fast on issuing emergency decisions and stopping executive actions…

yibg 2 days ago | parent [-]

They should then just ignore the courts decisions they don’t like like the current administration does.

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> as of now, I don't think any judge or court has contested in the interpretation of the language

Who has standing to sue here? The best I could see is a shareholder lawsuit, but that will take years. Meanwhile, this administration is getting slapped down by courts across the country, including a SCOTUS willing to overturn precedent to curry his favour.

georgeecollins 3 days ago | parent [-]

Congress, if they cared.

Sparyjerry 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The "or else' isn't the problem. The problem is the government trying to get involved in the first place. Intel was not forced to give away 10% of their company for 10 billion dollars, they simply wanted the 10 billion dollars. It's the fault of our government for propping up failing companies. Intel should be dying instead.

thaumasiotes 3 days ago | parent [-]

Intel may well have wanted to donate some ownership more than it wanted 10 billion dollars. They are now in a position to argue forever that what's good for Intel is good for the federal government.

re-thc 3 days ago | parent [-]

> They are now in a position to argue forever that what's good for Intel is good for the federal government

What does that even give you? They can argue all they want. Doesn't mean the government will listen.

thaumasiotes 3 days ago | parent [-]

It's a fairly routine practice for business owners to let local politicians invest in their business.

Why do you think that is?

re-thc 3 days ago | parent [-]

> fairly routine practice for business owners to let local politicians invest in their business

Let? Like this 1? Where if you don't we threaten to fire the CEO and take over the company otherwise?

Are you sure it is let?

> local politicians

Is 1 or more individuals. In this instance it is "the government" as an entity. Not the same?

thaumasiotes 3 days ago | parent [-]

First think about why it happens, and then decide whether you think this is the same.

re-thc 2 days ago | parent [-]

So if I decide so it’s true? I don’t get where you’re going with your comments?

thaumasiotes 2 days ago | parent [-]

Whatever you decide is, by definition, what you believe is true. You don't seem to be particularly skilled at accurately determining what's true, but there's not much I can do about that other than providing the advice I've already given you.

smt88 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Trump was explicit about the "or else" part. He said publicly that Intel did it because "[the CEO] wanted to keep his job," a reference to Trump's earlier pressure for him to be fired due to his vulnerability to pressure from the CCP.

fluoridation 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why would the government need to "demand" to buy a piece of a publicly-traded company? Is 10% of Intel more than what is being traded in the public market?

BurningFrog 3 days ago | parent [-]

As I understand it, the government didn't pay anything for these shares.

frollogaston 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

"purchasing 433.3 million shares at a price of $20.47 per share" in the article. That was the price a day or so ago

BeetleB 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Why does this keep coming up?

They're paying the rest of the CHIPS Act money. Overall, they're putting in over $10B into Intel.

cududa 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Where in the bill passed by Congress does it say taking funds entitles the government to 10% of the company 3 years after the fact?

BeetleB 3 days ago | parent [-]

> company 3 years after the fact?

Intel hasn't gotten most of the money they were awarded. Even the Biden administration were hesitant in doling it out, because of concerns that Intel could deliver. That's why out of frustration, the previous CEO became vocal in saying "We still haven't gotten any money yet!" and was openly frustrated about it.

Lip-Bu Tan, in the last quarterly earnings signaled a decent likelihood of not developing 14A (and thus halting much of the semiconductor infrastructure they implied they would need the CHIPS money for). So it's perfectly fair for the government to say "We're not giving you the rest of the money."

What this deal does is release the rest of the money, but with strings attached.

There were always strings attached - even with the prior administration. The strings have merely changed, and Intel benefits by actually getting the money now vs a long drawn out process.

re-thc 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> They're paying the rest of the CHIPS Act money. Overall, they're putting in over $10B into Intel.

So taking a scholarship means you're giving a % of yourself to the school?

Was this ever mentioned when Intel signed up? Did you know about it?

BeetleB 3 days ago | parent [-]

> So taking a scholarship means you're giving a % of yourself to the school?

> Was this ever mentioned when Intel signed up? Did you know about it?

See my other comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44993388

The main point is that even with the prior administration, it wasn't a given Intel would receive all the money. This way, they get the full amount, and fast.

re-thc 2 days ago | parent [-]

> This way, they get the full amount, and fast.

Intel has >20B in the bank. If they really want to they can wait and sell shares for a better deal like with SoftBank.

i.e. not the main point.

BeetleB 2 days ago | parent [-]

They had that money in the bank (and much more) when they lobbied to get the CHIPS act passed. They want the money.

So yes, this is all about getting the rest of the money.

The administration is deciding they should not get it for free. Which totally makes sense given that Intel is openly signaling a willingness to halt semiconductor research.

sschueller 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This will scare off foreign investment. Especially pharma which can be considered national security. Why would I invest billions in the US to risk having my factories taken by the US government when the market in India or China is way bigger and the risk at this time seems a lot less.

tempodox 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This is about the breakdown of the rule of law

Wherever Law ends, Tyranny begins.

e40 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Straight up blackmail. It was my immediate thought, and nothing I’ve since it was announced has changed my opinion.

andsoitis 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> is about the breakdown of the rule of law, a unitary executive bypassing all other branches of government and demanding a private enterprise give itself over to the government.

What do you think about Senator Bernie Sanders backing Trump plan for government stake in Intel?

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2025/8/20/us-senator-berni...

verzali 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's odd seeing Republicans endorse state owned companies. Bernie has at least been consistent in his beliefs.

andsoitis 3 days ago | parent [-]

> It's odd seeing Republicans endorse state owned companies.

What’s even more confusing is that the Republicans voter will rationalize this!

> Bernie has at least been consistent in his beliefs.

So same outcome. The question is whether the two “sides” see their common point of view.

sgnelson 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think "fuck your whataboutism."

frollogaston 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm glad Sanders never made it past senator. If only Trump never made it past casino owner.