| ▲ | miohtama 3 days ago |
| There is only 1 winner and 1 loser: Intel. It's the only chip manufacturer "left" in the US. The argument is national security: the US expects China to invade Taiwan and this will kill TSMC in the process. Whether this will happen or not can be debated, but this is what the government expects. |
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| ▲ | ac29 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > It's the only chip manufacturer "left" in the US Global Foundries, Micron, and Texas Instruments all come to mind |
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| ▲ | adgjlsfhk1 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | GF hasn't gone past the 12nm node. TI is at 45nm. Micron is on relatively recent processes, but they make RAM, not logic (which are totally different processes). Intel is the only chip manufacturer left that is working in logic at anything like the leading edge. | |
| ▲ | chneu 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | GF is a few nodes behind. Micron doesn't make semiconductors, they mostly make flash and whatnot. TI doesn't have the capacity or knowledge to expand to Intel's size/capacity | | |
| ▲ | tbrownaw 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > doesn't make semiconductors, they mostly make flash and whatnot Um. All that stuff is still semiconductors, just with different patterns printed on them. | | |
| ▲ | johnecheck 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You're right but also wrong. Flash is just semiconductors etched in a different pattern than logic, but you don't print on semiconductors. Semiconductors are 'printed' on wafers via photolithography. | | |
| ▲ | kragen 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Intel's wafers are made of silicon, which is a semiconductor. Silicon on sapphire hasn't been widely used for a long time, if that's what you're thinking of. Photolithography prints resists on semiconductor wafers which are then used to pattern the next process step, such as wet etching, plasma etching, oxide growth, epitaxial polysilicon growth, ion implantation, etc. These mostly remove semiconductor from the wafer or alter its properties. | | |
| ▲ | johnecheck 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Interesting, I hadn't known that silicon is itself a semiconductor before all the circuits are added. Am I correct in saying that the etching process transforms a single semiconductor into billions? | | |
| ▲ | kragen 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | No, silicon is still just one semiconductor, just like water is just one liquid. The substrate is still just one piece of silicon, despite having many silicon semiconductor devices fabricated in it. Polysilicon layers may or may not be additional pieces of silicon. | |
| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | tbrownaw 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The linked ppt here has a lot of details: https://fabweb.ece.illinois.edu/ |
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| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | bink 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > TI doesn't have the capacity or knowledge to expand to Intel's size/capacity I mean, they might if Intel were allowed to fail. | | |
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| ▲ | jongjong 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah terrible position to be when your own government is investing in your competitors' company using your own tax dollars. As a software engineer, this isn't an entirely new concept. | | |
| ▲ | kragen 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I think all three of those other companies are also getting CHIPS-act subsidies? | | |
| ▲ | jongjong 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I suppose it could be worse. Still, now the US has a vested interest in seeing Intel crush AMD and others. | | |
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| ▲ | onepointsixC 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | GF is a zombie company. Micron and TI are both far far away from leading edge. There is only one American company which is both developing and manufacturing leading edge nodes. | |
| ▲ | hangonhn 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | re: Micron - Memory is very different from logic chips. You vast number of repeating cells in memory. If any of them are bad you can just turn them off and bin them as lower capacity. You can do that to some extend with logic chips but not nearly as much as memory. |
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| ▲ | pixelatedindex 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > the US expects China to invade Taiwan and this will kill TSMC in the process. Would it though? The TSMC foundries are pretty much in every continent. Are they just going to stop operating if this happens? Because that seems akin to killing a golden goose. Also what is up with Global Foundries? I don’t hear a peep about them. |
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| ▲ | hajile 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I believe the most modern TSMC fabs outside of Taiwan are in Arizona. They are just moving to 4nm which is nearly 5 years old and just a revision of 5nm which is getting close to 7 years old. TSMC aims to have N3 in Arizona by 2028 at the earliest which is 6 years after it first released. By that time, TSMC will have released N3X, N2, N2P, N2X, A16, and A14. TSMC is heavily sponsored by the Taiwanese government and was created with the express purpose of making Taiwan so valuable that the West would be forced to defend them against China. Moving newer processes out of the country is against their national interests and they've made it clear that there's no plan to do that. | | |
| ▲ | s3p a day ago | parent [-] | | The Arizona fab has been mostly a letdown so far and it's not even doing e2e manufacturing - all parts get shipped back to Taiwan for final assembly. |
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| ▲ | chneu 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | GF is like a decade behind in research. Without years to ramp up and update their fabs they're not relevant. | | | |
| ▲ | internetter 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Global Foundries is on 12nm. TSMC is at 3. | | |
| ▲ | carom 3 days ago | parent [-] | | TSMC gets their machines from ASML who licenses their technology from the Department of Energy. The US will be OK. | | |
| ▲ | chrsw 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If (or when) China invades Taiwan we will be better off than Taiwan but I wouldn't call us "OK" at that point. That will be a major disruption. It will take decades for the US to get where Taiwan is now in semiconductor manufacturing, if ever. It's not just about building the most advanced chip factory. It's about re-aligning the entire nation's value system and culture to allow such development to happen in the first place. We complain about the money we spend already. And now we're supposed to subsidize an entire industry to the point where we can build the most complex machines known to civilization at scale in a time-frame that matters to a global conflict that's potentially approaching soon? I don't see it. | | |
| ▲ | voidfunc 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > It's about re-aligning the entire nation's value system and culture to allow such development to happen in the first place. It's taken about 8 years to realign the US from a democracy to a fascist regime, something that was nearly unthinkable. This isn't a hard problem with the right propaganda and manipulation. | | |
| ▲ | chrsw 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes but it's easy to go from democracy to fascism. It's harder going the other way. It's like going from a clean house to a messy house is much easier than going from a filthy house to a tidy house. |
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| ▲ | mkl 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If it was that simple, Intel, Samsung, etc. wouldn't be behind TSMC. There's a lot more to it than just buying an ASML machine. | |
| ▲ | _zoltan_ 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This shows me you are not aware of just how much work goes into EUV and beyond besides simply buying the machine. |
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| ▲ | HDThoreaun 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The vast majority of TSMC production is in taiwan. If china invades the fabs will be destroyed. They pretty much would be forced to just stop operating, yes. | |
| ▲ | onepointsixC 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Outside of Taiwan TSMC foundries are just pumping out already developed non leading edge fab processes. Everyone who matters to TSMC tech development is in Taiwan. |
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| ▲ | chiefalchemist 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I see it different. The loser is the taxpayers. The loser is the market, which is less and less free. When there’s no incentive to run your company correctly… we get another company not run correctly. |
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| ▲ | dedge 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Exactly. Expect to see some kind of additional intervention such as forcing a certain number of chips that currently go to TSMC to go to Intel. |
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| ▲ | onetimeusename 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is my thought on it too. I don't think this is meant to be a political win so much as US intelligence views chip manufacturing extremely strategically. I also don't know about what will happen to TSMC. But the US has been pushing for US made GPUs as well. This goes back to Biden's admin as well. https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/us-govt-pushes-nv... |
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| ▲ | gonzopancho 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And the current administration is unlikely to help Taiwan in the event of said invasion. |
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| ▲ | SJC_Hacker 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Quite the opposite. Part of the reason Trump wanted to end the Russia-Ukraine war so bad was because they wanted to gear up for the "big fight". Ukraine simply wasn't a big strategic priority which is why they wanted to either end the war (best case), or shift responsibility over to Europe if that failed. Lookup Elbridge Colby - served in first Trump admin and now Undersecretary of Defense. Along with Hegseth and JD Vance, they are all that same line of thought | | |
| ▲ | camdroidw a day ago | parent [-] | | Elaborate a bit more on the last para, please? I know Rubio is a hawk and bannon (who Trump still talks to) wants war | | |
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| ▲ | actionfromafar 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And now China knows the US expects this and it also knows the US does not expect to stop China, so China knows that it can expect the US to do very little. It's game theory turtles all the way down... Edit: I think it's a misconception that China cares much about fabs in Taiwan. It wants unification. |
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| ▲ | kloop 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It also means that China can expect the destruction of Taiwan's fabs to hurt the US less than China. Combine that with the US's ability to unilaterally destroy Taiwan's fabs, and it sways the calculation a bit |
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| ▲ | Yoofie 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Texas Instruments and Microchip: Am I a joke to you? |
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| ▲ | ecocentrik 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If the argument was for protecting Intel, then the US government should be placing huge orders with Intel for solutions that will fund R&D and allow the company to regain its position as a foundry. They should be tapping into the defense budget. DARPA should be involved. This was an opportunity for petty extortion and a step towards socialism. |
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| ▲ | bushbaba 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | A large bulk of CPU orders comes from Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. Want to say 50% of all AMD revenue is datacenters, and the Hyperscalers represent the largest chunk of that. | |
| ▲ | onepointsixC 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Huge order for... what? DoD's needs for chips are quite modest in quantity. Truth is that the US Gov doesn't need the volume which requires Intel to keep afloat. | |
| ▲ | KetoManx64 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Government involvement is the fastest way to corrupt the purpose of an organization, hollow out its soul and quickly get rid of all the competant people.
There's a reason that the DOGE findings made a laughing stock of government employees. | | |
| ▲ | estearum 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > There's a reason that the DOGE findings made a laughing stock of government employees Can you point out which specific findings? Ideally ones that are substantiated and not just one off tweets. | |
| ▲ | dgb23 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Depends on the implementation. Switzerland owns its energy companies and its public transport company. Hugely successful. |
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| ▲ | abullinan 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is not socialism. Socialism is when the workers control the means of production. Not a fat windbag mobster president and his thugs. |
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| ▲ | flamedoge 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| so.. shouldn't US take stake in TSMC instead? |
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