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| ▲ | potato3732842 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >This money was already taxed when the individual who pays the babysitter received it. It's questionable whether the society as a whole benefits from taxing babysitters. Replace babysitter with any government regulated and licensed profession and the motives become clearer. The government gets power by forcing things above the table because once above the table you can be forced to transact with who they want and how they want and those parties then become dependent upon government to a degree. There's no such thing as cash under the table land surveying, for example. | |
| ▲ | danaris 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This money was already taxed when the individual who pays the babysitter received it. And the money the retail clerk gets paid was already taxed when the customers spent it at the store. No, wait, it was already taxed when they got paid it! No, wait, it was already taxed when the customers of their employers spent it! No, wait—— ...This whole idea of "money getting taxed multiple times" being a bad thing is absurd. Of course any given dollar going through the economy is going to get taxed many times. It's not about the dollars; it's about the transactions. And, ultimately, it's about funding the government so it can actually provide services, from sanitation all the way up to the military. (Note that this is not an attempt to say that "the more taxation, the better"; that's obviously absurd, too. There are different levels of taxation that make sense for different people, different countries, different transactions, and different economic circumstances. There is no one simple magic rule you can follow that will always make things better when it comes to taxation, any more than there is with anything else economic or political.) | | |
| ▲ | ifyoubuildit 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You get less of what you disincentivize. Putting artificial friction on every single transaction is not free, and it's fucking obnoxious. Meanwhile, the government you fund takes that money and uses it to surveil you, and commits crimes across the world in your name. And this giant machine that's supposed to stop the bad guys tells you there's nothing to see here when some big scandal comes up right in front of your face. Yes, I think money being taxed multiple times is too much. | | |
| ▲ | danaris 3 days ago | parent [-] | | So you think each dollar should be tagged when it's minted, so that the first time it gets taxed—whether that's in sales tax, income tax, capital gains, or what have you—it gets marked "this one's done!" and it can never be taxed again? | | |
| ▲ | ifyoubuildit 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Probably not. What needs to happen is the government should be small enough that you can realistically fund it entirely via some minimally invasive tax scheme. Government is essential, massive government is not. Yet the system we have now is probably the smallest it will ever be (before it collapses anyway). |
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| ▲ | alexey-salmin 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And the money the retail clerk gets paid was already taxed when the customers spent it at the store. Your imaginary analogy chain breaks here. The store is taxed on what's left after the expenses, individuals are taxed on the total income. If I, as an individual, could deduct my babysitter expenses from my income taxes, I would have no questions as to why babysitter has to pay them. This doesn't happen however. In some countries you can deduct 50% at best. Therefore I don't see the point of taxing first the parent and then the babysitter again. You can as well tax the parent 2x, it would be the same from the economical standpoint. > There are different levels of taxation that make sense for different people, different countries, different transactions, and different economic circumstances You didn't make any effort to explain why taxing babysitters is the "level that makes sense" as you put it. You just write some generic words how taxes are good in general and help government to provide services. It's irrelevant to our conversation. |
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| ▲ | Imustaskforhelp 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Man I wanted to write about georgism (see my comment on the parent's post where I talk about land parasites) I am such a big georgist. Seriously, I might genuinely cry seeing how georgism isn't being implemented.
it is one of the most superior policy systems but the parasites own so much that we don't even discuss about it I was talking to my friend about georgism when he asked me if I was a capitalist/communist..
Basically in the end he just said, that he doesn't know about economics... so he doesn't know and they wanted to change the topic
I feel like this might be a major hurdle where people think that economics is some huge mumbo jumbo when I feel like georgism and (index funds?) are two things that almost everyone should know given how simple they are. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Georgism is land communism. The 'community' or whoever is collecting the taxes (LVT) owns all land and rents it out. Ideal LVT puts the market value of all land at $0 after tax liabilities, so even if you could 'own' land under Georgism it would largely be economically meaningless. It's straight up marxism hidden as a capitalist market measure. Vacant land portion of property taxes are essentially georgism-light where the land capital is mostly under a capitalist model but with a % owned by the community (or more likely, a government that commonly works against community interests) and rented out in the form of property tax (in georgism the % is 100). | | |
| ▲ | nostrademons 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | "Land communism" isn't a bad way to put it. But I think you need to make a pretty clear distinction between "land" communism and, well, communism. Communism is based on public ownership of the means of production: if you own a steel factory, you don't really "own" a steel factory, the people own the factory and the state appoints a bureaucrat or manager to run it. You can receive no profit from it, you can't sell it, really you have no rights to it other than the state's promise to let you manage it (and whatever they pay you for that). Georgism explicitly still admits private property: if you own a steel factory, you actually do own a steel factory, you can make decisions about the management of that factory, you can sell it, etc. In many ways it's more capitalist than today's capitalism, because single-tax Georgism also states that there should be no income or capital gains tax, and so you receive 100% of the profits from building that factory. You just have to pay a tax to the state for the land that the factory sits on, set in proportion to what others would be willing to rent the land for. The distinction is pretty key, because it gets at the heart of human agency and incentives. Georgism does not admit private ownership of the land because the land was here before any humans were; no human suddenly built the land, and no human can destroy it, they can only manage its use. Likewise for other common goods (like pollution, the electromagnetic spectrum, natural resources, etc.) which Georgism seeks to manage. Georgism does admit private property, because when you construct a machine or a factory or invent a new process, that came out of your own efforts. It could be summed up as "private persons own what they build or buy, the public owns what was here before". | |
| ▲ | tomrod 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Georgism explicitly rejects Marx's class-based analysis and Marx's narrative of zero-sum class conflict. What symptoms Marx attributes to class conflict, George attributes to rent-seeking, something which both Georgists and capitalists agree is a corruption of capitalism, rather than an inherent element. Whereas Marxists conflate economic rent and return on capital - an economically unjustifiable leap in logic. Marxism explicitly rejects classical liberal principles such as the rule of law, limited government, free markets, and individual rights, Georgism not only functions within those principles, but requires them. Marxism is incompatible with individual rights due to its hostile position on private property and its insistence that all means of production be collective property. The most fundamental means of production of them all is an individual's labor. Without which, no amount of land would produce a farm, a mine, a house, or a city. And then we wonder why Marxist regimes consistently run slave labor camps. Henry George argues that society only has the right to lay claim to economic goods produced by society, rather than an individual. Marxism recognizes no such distinction. Georgism is fully defensible using classical economics and has been repeatedly endorsed by both classical and modern economists. Marxism is at best heterodox economics and at worst, pseudoscience. Georgism could be implemented tomorrow if sufficient political will existed. Marxism requires a violent overthrow of the state. Henry George himself rejected Marxism, famously predicting that if it was ever tried, the inevitable result would be a dictatorship. Unlike Marx's predictions, that prediction of George's has a 100% validation rate. And he made that prediction while Marx was still alive. Economists from Adam Smith and David Ricardo to Milton Friedman and Joseph Stiglitz have observed that a public levy on land value (Georgism/LVT) does not cause economic inefficiency, unlike other taxes. Suffices to say, you are not sharing a grounded opinion on Georgism. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The Trojan Horse of Georgism does all the things you disdain, for land, which is the most vile of all because land creatures can't escape it. The genius is Georgism pretends like it's not Marxist by using market principles, but zeroing them out so you don't actually own it and you end back in land communism. >Economists from Adam Smith and David Ricardo to Milton Friedman and Joseph Stiglitz have observed that a public levy on land value (Georgism/LVT) does not cause economic inefficiency, unlike other taxes. This is not an accurate portrayal, there is an extensive list of problems with Georgism that destroys much of the important methods of allocating and using land, even if you could tax it accurately.[] [] https://cdn.mises.org/Single%20Tax%20Economic%20and%20Moral%... | | |
| ▲ | tomrod 3 days ago | parent [-] | | You're on a lonely island there, and despite the followup edit for a reference to the Mises Institute, your thoughts represents neither mainstream nor, especially recently, what their own Pete Boettke would declare, mainline economics. Thanks for your thoughts, I've reviewed them and found them inaccurate. Smith, Adam (1776). "Chapter 2, Article 1: Taxes upon the Rent of Houses". The Wealth of Nations, Book V. Tideman, Nicolaus; Gaffney, Mason (1994). Land and Taxation. Shepheard-Walwyn in association with Centre for Incentive Taxation. ISBN 978-0-85683-162-1. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent [-] | | You're quoting how Adam Smith hated landlords/rent, yet you seek to enslave all of society by making the government the landlord of everyone. From Smith's citation you have here, you would seek to exacerbate the problem he identifies. | | |
| ▲ | tomrod 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Thank you again for your thoughts, this will be my last response to you since, based on our interaction, I believe you want the last word. You are substantively incorrect in assertions. You have yet move beyond an assertion that "Georgism is Marxism." I have provided both justification why you assertion is invalid, and pointed out that leading economists of all stripes (orthodox and heterodox) consider a land value tax to both be minimally distortive. Thanks for the opportunity to present Georgism as a superior policy over the clamor in your prior comments. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Alright, I stand corrected. Georgism is Marxism for everything it actually is called upon to operate on in practice, which is the land, which by your own omission goes uncontested. |
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| ▲ | Imustaskforhelp 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, this was such a wonderful read. I think I maybe mentioned in this post or some other how I was discussing georgism with my friends and I couldn't really articulate the difference b/w georgism and communism partially because I had gotten into in depth about georgism some time ago, and I will admit that I had forgotten quite a bit of details. This was such a beautiful ,might I say article on georgism. I would genuinely prefer if you could write it as a standalone article that I might share with my friends or can refer to. Its such a nice read. Thanks for giving me the pleasure to read it. Edit: I went further into the post and it seemed that mothball isn't having this discussion in good faith and wants to have a last word and yes they feel so right, almost being stupid might I say. But your way of recognizing it and saying it up front really both surprised me and made me respect ya since you actually went through their sources when they sent some and are doing this discussion in good faith. I am maybe georgist because I feel like it genuinely made the most sense to me and uh maybe it makes also sense because land price seems to have gone so high that I can't hold land so maybe that's a bias but still georgism is such a good take yet landlords have such a lobby that I wonder if we can break it. We really need to get more georgist thoughts. Might I say,though this isn't strictly georgism but taxing/patching billionaire loopholes since software businesses are built on open source and is almost like land in the sense that community owns it, plus I feel like that concentration of power into such people is wrongful but I also know that its a really really tough issue as to taxing billionaires, do we tax their stocks? do we do what exactly?? Yet georgism is a right step in that direction except it is more quantifiable and (almost universally?) agreed to be a good taxation strategy. | | |
| ▲ | tomrod 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | In my understanding, the reason LVT/Georgism would work is because the base stock is fixed for the very long term (geologically, barring land reclamation projects from the ocean). Software has no similar basis, and thus would devolve to taxation like current stocks or bonds today, where growth of the capital stock can occur. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent [-] | | And that is another weakness of Georgism: it causes the base stock to be fixed. Land speculators play an important role by introducing unimproved land into the market at a delayed point in time, adjusting the stock of available land to market demands, preventing economically inefficient prior improvements from happening which then make it even more expensive to use the land productively in the future. The incredibly vital task of land speculation that adjusts available stock to market conditions, is virtually impossible under a LVT. |
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| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Please note George himself said his land scheme would "accomplish
the same thing (as land nationalization) in a simpler, easier, and
quieter way."[] It was well understood by George that what he was doing was communism. [] Henry George, Progress and Poverty |
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| ▲ | mothballed 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tariffs also make sense, since all that stuff is going through and declared to customs anyway, although it might be an economically inferior mechanism. Either way the income tax is one of the most dystopian ways to collect tax as it pretty much relies on mass surveillance of domestic activities to be implemented fairly or effectively. | | |
| ▲ | tomrod 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Neoclassical economics recognizes, under the standard macro model, that labor taxation is second best. The first-best is capital taxation, once and for all time, but due to time inconsistency (nothing prevents a government from taxing again in the future) it fails to be useful outside of theory. There is some squishiness once you consider overlapping generations model, arguably more realistic than infinitely lived agents (which I always felt represent companies or familial dynasties more than real people). Land value taxation is different because there is no meaningful growth or loss of the capital stock. | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Neoclassical economics recognizes, under the standard macro model, that labor taxation is second best. The first-best is capital taxation, once and for all time Tariffs (or, more generically, consumption taxes) are effectively both. If something is sold, the money is going to some combination of labor and capital, and then the tax is paid either way. Tariffs in particular also create a preference for domestic production, which increases domestic labor demand at the cost of lower economic efficiency and higher prices, which is the primary thing that makes them dumb if you're not a fan of taking that trade off. In theory the primary disadvantage to consumption taxes is that unless you want to track all of everyone's consumption, it's hard to apply a progressive rate structure. But in practice there is a way to do that -- provide a universal tax credit in a fixed amount. Then everyone pays a uniform marginal rate, lower income people receive e.g. a $10,000 credit and pay $5000 in taxes (which also obviates the need for $5000 in social assistance programs), and middle and upper income people get the same $10,000 credit but pay more in tax. | |
| ▲ | mothballed 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm talking about from a practical perspective including respecting domestic privacy, not theoretical bests. It is difficult to determine the value of a particular piece of land, particularly if it hasn't been sold for a long time and won't anytime soon. International trade can much easier be priced, and there is no (additional) privacy concern because it all has to be declared anyway. | | |
| ▲ | tomrod 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Tariffs, unless hyperfocused, are dumb. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Indeed, but funding the level of government the constitution authorizes, which shouldn't cost more than a couple percent of GDP, their dumb-ness isn't enough to greatly distort the market and meanwhile there is very little additional overhead or intrusion vs other methods of taxation. | | |
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