the scientific enterprise has undermined itself already. Look at how we lost decades of research in alzheimer's as a good example.

This problem is WAY worse than even sabines says. If a scientist publishes something sketchy, even sometimes just a little bit, they might wind up sinking years of research of other people who are honest truthseeking researchers just chasing the sketchy results. These good people then burn out or flip to the dark side, only leaving rotten people. It's like a fucking market of lemons, except if becoming lemons were viral.

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FrustratedMonky 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Sketchy. It really is only apparent in hindsight after investigation.

When something turns out to be a valid idea, guess that wasn't sketchy.

When something turns out to be wild goose chase, guess that was sketchy, why did we do that?

You don't know the winning paths until you take them. But complaining that some wrong paths were taken, isn't the solution. Because who can pick winners ahead of time?

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throwawaymaths 4 days ago | parent [-]

No. There are some routes that are obviously pointless in foresight, and funding them is just giving money to someone's pet project, for example: Everything Julius Rebek does.

Then, there are people who are defrauding by making claims that are for SURE easy to know are sketchy. I promise you every active researcher (grad student, postdoc) can off the top of their head tell you AT LEAST three results that they know are on shaky ground.

"There are no right answers" is perfectly valid. Saying "there are no wrong answers" is a recipe for disaster, and cronyism.

To put it bluntly: Should the DOE fund perpetual motion research? Of course not. You 100% should block dumb paths of research. We don't do that enough.

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FrustratedMonky 4 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, but was it really obvious we shouldn't pursue String Theory? It seemed promising in the beginning.

Even for Alzheimer’s, it isn't as slam dunk obvious as a perpetual motion machine.

Recent discussion on pro/con of Alzheimer’s controversy. https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/in-defense-of-the-amyloid-h...

I'm just super wary of the 'right's tendency to throw the baby out with bath water, like JFK JR, and set the US back a few decades. Just because they don't understand science, so it must all be bad.

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throwawaymaths 3 days ago | parent [-]

yes of course JFK jr is brainwormed to hell but he's not setting back the US decades. many things he tears down will be rebuildable and some things he puts in are fine, actually. what is far far more dangerous is the rot in the science infrastructure. because that will take decades to unwind (if we even do), and it's not an obvious problem like the way anything in politics is. people implicitly trust science, which is the problem. people implicitly distrust at least the politics on the other side of the aisle so there's some adversarial challenging going on and the opportunity for growth and integration. science is devoid of that right now.

the FDA is all fucked up anyways and if you doubt that, look up propublicas expose on serious drug safety lapses there.

> Alzheimer’s, it isn't as slam dunk obvious as a perpetual motion machine

it wasn't perpetual motion level fraud, but it was bad. you weren't there. everyone doing work in the salt mines was like why the fuck arent my experiments working but nobody really stood up to say this is bullshit, because that would be the end of your career if you were a junior researcher... much easier to half ass a result, get the publication, and move on with your life.

> String Theory, It seemed promising in the beginning

maybe it shouldn't have been. there is a heuristic for what actually makes discoveries in science. and the string theory approach is not it. people were sounding the alarm at the time, like, among others some guy named richard feynman. but nobody was listening to them evidentally.

	▲	FrustratedMonky 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		For JFK, and current regime, anti-science, Nasa cuts, etc... I think what you are espousing is the theory that sometimes you need to burn it down in order to rebuild. I really hope you are right. That is only silver lining to current times, is that maybe sometimes the current calcified structures need to be hit hard in order to re-form. I'm hoping it is that, as opposed to actually just burned down so far it never builds back. Not to go off topic, it could be like Vorlon and Shadow war in Babylon 5. You need the side of order that can become stuck, and the side of chaos that can't really build anything. And they fight back and forth. Neither is really good/bad. For research, FDA. I don't have an answer. I still think current system of scientific method, peer reviews, publishing openly to public, providing the raw data. All that, while it can have problems, I can't think of another way. Of course, humans are fallible, and for any system to work, people need to stand up to fraud and bad ideas. But that comes down to individuals doing the right thing.

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kelipso 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As oppose to industry that blows hundreds of billions of dollars on hype bubbles every couple of years.

	▲	tombert 4 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I just bought a nearly-new used Herman Miller Aeron chair. It cost me $400, but if I had bought it new from their website it would have cost me ~$1600-1800. It's a nice chair, but what I think what happens is that a company will buy a new nice chair for every employee, then do massive downsize and/or go bankrupt, and they liquidate these chairs for pennies on the dollar, oversaturating the market and making the chairs fairly cheap on the used market. It's no individual person's money, so they don't really care if they're taking a huge loss, and they might be able to write off a loss on taxes. But it makes me think that if it's routinely easy to buy an $1800 chair for $400 because this is so common, maybe corporations aren't these hyper-optimized controllers of money.
	▲	throwawaymaths 4 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Yeah, that's a problem too. Keynes: By a continuing process of inflation, Governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some. The sight of this arbitrary rearrangement of riches strikes not only at security, but at confidence in the equity of the existing distribution of wealth. Those to whom the system brings windfalls, beyond their deserts and even beyond their expectations or desires, become "profiteers," who are the object of the hatred of the bourgeoisie, whom the inflationism has impoverished, not less than of the proletariat. As the inflation proceeds and the real value of the currency fluctuates wildly from month to month, all permanent relations between debtors and creditors, which form the ultimate foundation of capitalism, become so utterly disordered as to be almost meaningless; and the process of wealth-getting degenerates into a gamble and a lottery.

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jordanpg 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, academia is the worst system except for all the other ones.

Academia is what she is criticizing, btw, not the "scientific enterprise," even if she doesn't say it all the time. You know what else she doesn't say? What we should do instead.

Here's what she thinks we should do instead: privatize academic research. Can you think of any problems with that?