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tombert 5 days ago

This actually looks pretty neat, particularly the integration with Flatpak.

One thing that confused me when I first went to Linux a million years ago was the difference in how you install stuff. With Windows you download an exe file, double click it, next next next finish, and you have your app installed.

With Linux, every distro is slightly different and it's almost never quite as straightforward to people. I think Flatpak has the potential to bring that kind of Windows-style of installation to the masses, and it always kind of annoyed me that Ubuntu doesn't embrace Flatpak outta the box.

wsc981 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I feel the Mac way is preferable, if possible.

Download a package (disk image) - macOS automatically extracts to the desktop. Drag and drop the application from the disk image into the /Applications directory. Done.

This is the way, I believe, most software should be installed. I understand some stuff might need to touch system files and for that, perhaps a wizard makes sense.

jeroenhd 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

The Mac way kind of depends on how you get your application. Sometimes applications come from the app store, sometimes they're ZIP'ed files that get auto-extracted, sometimes they're in DMGs that are mounted but not extracted, and sometimes they open some kind of install wizard.

Some of them you can open by right-clicking them and hitting open. Others just open directly. There are also apps that throw up an error when you try to open them and you need to go to the security settings to hit an oddly-placed button to open them. Whether or not you've managed to run the program at least once also seems to influence whether or not an app in the applications folder actually shows up in Launchpad.

Windows does half of this too these days, but these days every OS is confusing and needs specific know-how when you just want to run the tool you downloaded.

ZaoLahma 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's neat enough, but I still prefer to not have to download stuff, and instead have the available software in a central repository.

There's a reason why projects like Homebrew exist for Mac.

pidgeon_lover 5 days ago | parent [-]

Central repositories and package managers are the reason I avoid Linux - I like to keep offline backups of old software. This is extremely difficult on Linux and you have to trust the package managers to keep your software available. I do not trust them to do so, and have faced countless issues at work with package deprecation on industrial Linux boxes. I end up having to manually search for and archive a million DEBs, which I can then manually install, and it ends up just being a very messy and time consuming way of approximating a fraction of Windows/Mac/Android's power.

int_19h 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Storage and bandwidth are cheap enough these days that you can easily archive the official repo in its entirety (using something like apt-mirror).

darkwater 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If you are so worried by that you can setup a private repository. It's just a glorified HTTP server...

tombert 5 days ago | parent [-]

I've debated trying to run my own Nixpkgs just because I think it would be fun, but I've talked myself out of it because I'm afraid that maintaining it would become a full time job.

ChocolateGod 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is only really possible on MacOS where's there's only one target.

Linux is not a single target.

alerighi 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Honestly, the fact that to install software you have to go on a site, download an installer, and run it, is one of the reasons why I don't like Windows.

Not only that thing is time consuming and cannot be easily automated, but it's error prone, you are likely to find in the first Google results not the official website of the software but some other site like Softonic that with the software also installs bloatware/malware/toolbars/etc. Of course an expert user can distinguish the official site from a scam, but usually the average computer user can't.

What I like about Linux is just that you type in a terminal (or you use one of the many GUI that exist) `sudo apt install <software name>` and a version of that software, along with its dependencies, it is installed. And not only installed, but packaged, if needed patched, and tested to work along with other software in the distribution. When I install Windows I spend at least 1 hours going to every website of software that I need, download the installer, run the installer, click next, next, next, and repeat. With Linux I can just type in a single command every software that I need, let it run and install it, while I do other things.

And when you need to uninstall a software? On Windows you need the uninstaller, that if it was not created correctly, or created at all, will leave a lot of stuff on the system, files, registry keys, broken links, cache files, etc that you need to remove either manually or with some "cleaner" programs that do more harm than good, for that reason an installation of Windows needs to be formatted every X years cause of the accumulated crap.

From a developer point of view, and I've done many times, writing an installer for Windows, even using open source frameworks like NSIS, is a manual operation that is time consuming, can induce in errors, you need to learn a specific scripting language, etc, while making a package for Ubuntu/Debian (for example) is a simple operation, as simple as put the files of your software in a directory, put in a metadata file, and launch a command to produce the package. Most build systems (automake, cmake) already can create deb packages automatically with commonly used plugins.

the__alchemist 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Anecdote: Most of the software I use isn't available in `apt`, or the version there is dated. I prefer to get software from its official source, not a third party I don't know will have the current or any versions. And, there is more to software than free/OSS.

popol12 5 days ago | parent [-]

I switched to an Arch based distribution and it's night and day. Almost everything is available through the AUR, you even have the choice to rebuild a package or to use a pre-compiled one. I'll never go back to Ubuntu and apt.

Oh, and it's a rolling release so my install doesn't break every 2 years with the new LTS upgrade.

j_w 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

The AUR really is night and day compared to other package managers. Official packages get updates FAST, user packages typically not much slower.

Issues with new versions get immediate solutions on the forums, so breaking changes hardly impact you if you just check the front page of the forums when they do happen.

Arch has the reputation of being the hardcore distro, but really its so user friendly to manage after the initial setup (and I think they have an "easy" setup process if you don't want to manually configure everything now).

bobajeff 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I want to be able rely an an arch distro enough to be my main but it just seems like it needs too much maintenance and I'm afraid of some parts of my system breaking in some updates.

Meanwhile, on Ubuntu/Debian-based systems I can just install locally or use a third party repository for the things that need to be more up to date.

j_w 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Since I've started daily driving Arch on my personal machine I've had two instances that I can recall of a breaking change, both related to an NVIDIA driver update relying on some package that for whatever reason couldn't be bundled with the NVIDIA driver package. On the front page of the forums the fix was immediately available.

The reputation that things are always breaking just doesn't have merit anymore.

tombert 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You might look into NixOS unstable.

Its packages are generally pretty up to date, like Arch, but every update/rebuild snapshots the current system.

I find this pretty wonderful; if I am mucking around with packages or boot parameters or whatever, it’s way less scary; if I break something I simply reboot and choose an older generation.

popol12 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I was scared too and found out that it's actually the opposite !

I'm using Manjaro (derived from Arch), so I can't talk for Arch itself but so far (2 years) it's been way more friendly to me than Ubuntu (which I used for 7 years before).

bobajeff 5 days ago | parent [-]

Long ago manjaro was my favorite distro because it had a lot of great defaults that are rare among distros. The thing I didn't like was always having to be on top of updates or the update system would break and fixing it was a process. However, the thing that made me stop altogether was that one update caused my Keyboard to stop working!

pidgeon_lover 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The Windows way, the software will always be available and will work "forever" from that installer. Archive to disk, reinstall in 30 years. Everything installs to a few easy-to-find paths, and the community support is amazing thanks to the largest userbase of all operating systems. Windows has its telemetry and update problems, but if you're not violating Microsoft's EULAs and hacking your own PC (with easy-to-use GUIs), you're not using it right.

The Linux way, the maintainers will archive your DEB or one of its dependencies and it will disappear - your business-critical machine now no longer works. You will not be able to reinstall it when travelling without an internet connection. The developer of another program might be Russian and now for political reasons his server is blocked/censored, so you can no longer install his software. Another developer changes the EULA and implements AI and mandatory telemetry and backdoors to the Five Eyes - your Linux system auto-updates and now you're pwned. You install a rolling release Linux and it updates endlessly until your CPU performance is compromised (see how Win10/11/iOS updates); you try to roll back and your software and dependencies all break (unfixable because APT installed them God-knows-where all over your system); when fixed, you find that because of the rolling release, you can't find the specific "last-good-version" of that one tool.

prmoustache 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It has been years most distros allows you to install apps through tools like Gnome Software or KDE <whichever its name is> which look exactly like an app store regardless if you are using flatpak or regular packages.

bodge5000 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An interesting anecdote for you about just how much an exe/dmg equivalent may be the missing link to mass adoption:

My older brother needed a new laptop. A little bit of background about him, he is not technically inclined at all and doesn't want to be. He uses Siri to operate things like alarms and reminders on his iPhone because he doesn't know how to use them. I even offered to show him, he doesn't want to know. This is someone for who an alarm clock app is too technical to get involved in.

So anyway, he needed a new laptop, and I of course had a fair collection of Thinkpads so gave him one of them; loaded up with Fedora (Gnome as the DE). I installed the basics he uses, pretty much just Chrome and the Spotify Desktop app.

He's been using that for a few years now and far less than having difficulty with it, he actually loves it, and says (I suppose mostly due to the speed of it) that he wouldn't want to go back to Windows.

Now obviously Flatpak can install everything he uses there, but I think for most people, that being an option rather than a requirement is scary. Windows doesn't have the option of using .exe, thats just how you install things, like it or not (*yes I know there's winget and whatnot, but you've gotta be pretty in the weeds to even be aware that exists). And if you want to install some non-free software, you can find yourself in a difficult position.

Clearly from my brothers case, Linux is now at a point where anyone can use it, I do think the last missing link is a unified executable/installer, that works across distros (in his mind, he's not using Fedora, he's using linux) and works in the same way as exe and dmg. And not just as another option either (see xkcd 927), but as a core requirement of shipping on Linux, and that's a far more difficult problem to solve.

pkulak 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you’re gonna install everything as a flatpak, run Debian stable.

slim 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

On your mobile phone you install software like in linux, by looking it up in the store. Windows is the outlier

pjmlp 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Outlier are the people that stick to old ways,

https://apps.microsoft.com

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/package-manager/wi...

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/windows-...

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/overview

thewebguyd 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unless you're looking for dev tools, then we are back to downloading an exe in the form of curl | bash taking over everywhere.

mrheosuper 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've seen many times in Linux, the version in app store is different from its website(usually outdated).

razemio 5 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, this makes sense, since most distros use a "standard release" system. The intention behind it is to keep your OS stable and only apply security patches at some point. If you want to have a system with always the newest software, you need to use a "rolling release " system. I think Arch Linux is the most popular (arch user btw). This is much more fun, if you know what you are doing. Otherwise you will end up with a broken system pretty fast. Ofc you can fix it, but depending on experience and skill something like Ubuntu is the better choice.

the__alchemist 5 days ago | parent [-]

I think this is a conflation of the OS with the software a user is running on it.

tombert 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure, but it's a big outlier.

It's one of those things, I think younger people would adapt to Linux just fine because of the reason you stated, but I think people my age (or my parents' age) would have the most trouble with it. When I learned how to use a computer, outside of the Commodore 64 that I broke as a little kid, I learned to download .exe files and next next next finish to install, as did my parents.

pidgeon_lover 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

On my mobile phone, I install software like on Windows, via APK/XAPK/IPA. I archive "last-known-good" versions of software I like, before the developer adds telemetry, advertising, AI and drops support for my OS version.

All "Linux forks" (MacOS, iOS, Android, Playstation OSes) all solve the installer problem and have offline installers.

Linux is the outlier.

abrookewood 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can also download an MSI file ... or execute a Powershell script ... or install via chocolatey ... or install via myget ... or install via winget ... or the Windows Store

Not quite as straight forward as you are suggesting.

wvenable 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

It used to be that simple but Microsoft (and others) are intent on copying Linux here. That would probably be fine on Windows as well as Linux if there was just one standard.

tombert 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

MSI files are still basically the same experience as the exe. The rest are pretty developer-centric, except the Windows Store, which I agree is more analogous.

neilv 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Flatpak is great for people who wish they were running Microsoft.

Others can just run a distro for people who believe in open source software.

dartharva 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's the opposite. Windows users don't procure their software from centralized stores, they install them from each of their individual installers downloaded from their respective websites.

TheFreim 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Others can just run a distro for people who believe in open source software.

What about Flatpak is contrary to open source software as you seem imply? Flatpak itself is free software, so is most of the software packaged with it. There are quite a few good reasons to use Flatpak, especially for developers who want to make their software available on different distributions without wanting to worry about packaging separately themselves. There are valid criticisms of it, but being somehow against open source software or being somehow related to Microsoft is not one of them.

j45 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

People don’t seem to understand the world doesn’t have to accept a solely form of packaging - theirs.

Flatpak might not be for me, it certainly helps get some beginners to Linux going. If they outgrow it, that’s great, or maybe they never need to.

sgc 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the spirit of conversation I will give you my take on this.

Things I hate: Flatpak, Snaps, Docker containers, SystemD (different I know, but worth a mention due to the strong emotions nonetheless). Obviously too big a topic to talk about everything, but one common theme in all of them is they are often presented as the only way to do things by the developers that use them. The projects that use them tend to be harder to customize than they should be - sometimes much harder. Some of them, like Snaps and SystemD, get shoved down my throat so I hate them with a smouldering hate! And I won't use Ubuntu or derivatives any more. If you want to make a derivative distro, use Debian, use Arch, use openSuse, use RedHat.

I don't love it when I see so many projects on github where the project is a docker image or a flatpak - instead of writing an app that I can directly install on at least some flavor of Linux, with an optional wrapper / container / package. Of course I understand why its done, but it does feel a bit antithetical to the spirit of open source if I have to do a ton of arcane work to decouple your project from these containers (all of which have obvious downsides as well as upsides) just to use it directly in an OS - which is ultimately where all this type of software runs.

Why write beautiful or useful software, and lock it in a box? Technically, of course it remains open source. Yes, I can probably laboriously take it out of the box. No, locking it in the box in the first place is not as effectively open as if it had never been placed only there in the first place. Developers who want to do this are totally free to do so - just it will rub me wrong and I won't appreciate their work nearly as much. That is a trade off I presume they know they are making for many users, so to each his own.

Practically? I have opted to avoid all flatpaks and snaps, and to only use appimages - to avoid having a variety of these tools with their variety of performance, maintenance, and security concerns to deal with on my system. I chose appimage because snaps are terrible and I much prefer the fuller inclusion of dependencies in an appimage compared to flatpaks just duplicating what a repository already does - and sharing dependencies between apps. I only use appimage if I really need a piece of software and there is no other packaging available. Similarly, I only use docker off my main device, but there are a few projects that require me to use it. I will always prefer an LXC or a VM first if I can.

That's my own little world. I know it doesn't matter. But I would guess it fits pretty close to the sentiment and practice of a lot of people.

ethersteeds 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Huh. I'm sure there's some projects that release exclusively via docker or snap/flatpak, but in my experience that's pretty uncommon. Far more often I see a release page with a dozen or more options. Binaries for Arm, AMD64, flatpak, snap, a few flavors of Mac, dockerfile, and of course the venerable tarball. The advanced will have deb and rpm as well. I see these options as very much aligning with the spirit of free or open source software: everyone can pick what's best for themselves.

Obviously when the choices are removed and there's cramming down throats, that's a problem. And I'm sure being forced to shuck software from a container would leave a bad taste. However I don't see the popularity of the formats you dislike as causing a broad decline of those you do.

sgc 5 days ago | parent [-]

It's becoming more and more common in my experience, hence the long post. Ubuntu's notorious hiding snaps in apt by writing wrappers and making it hard to work around it is the next level of this trend - and it is deplorable. That type of obfuscation and attempted deception is not the spirit of open source.

ethersteeds 4 days ago | parent [-]

That's a good point. I've stayed completely away from Ubuntu since they started down that path, which has made me out of touch with the day to day experience of its users. Deplorable is the right word.

the__alchemist 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree! I think the easy/simple thing to move towards is more compatible ABIs, and just... running standalone executribles, unless the program triggers a certain complexity threshold most don't.

keysdev 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

.deb should be fine too. It can convert to appimages pretty easily.

neilv 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Calling it (edit: using the term) "free software" is a great example of utterly failing to promote your own principles, and stabbing the entire mission in the face.

Let's try to repurpose an incredibly widely used pre-existing term, that means almost the opposite of the essence of our entire mission, to mean our mission. And every time people tell us that's moronic, we double down. As we continue to watch people somehow totally miss the point of the mission, but surely the fact that we're mind-bogglingly self-sabotaging at advocacy can't have anything to do with that. We should totally keep stabbing ourselves in the face.

IMHO, it is one of the most shameful failures of marketing of the last century.

TheFreim 5 days ago | parent [-]

Flatpak is unambiguously and undeniably free and open source software and the fact that you think it isn't demonstrates that you have been misinformed. The Flatpak project is licensed with the LGPL. Furthermore, the vast majority of software packaged with Flatpak is free and open source software.

https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak

neilv 5 days ago | parent [-]

No, I'm saying that you are making the advocacy mistake of using the term "free software".

marcus_holmes 5 days ago | parent [-]

I don't understand this. The software is free. But calling it "free software" is a mistake?

And I don't understand the advocacy angle. Is any reference to "free" or "open" in any tech-related conversation automatically advocacy (even if the author did not intend to be an advocate for it)?

Genuinely curious. Apologies if it doesn't read like genuine curiosity, I am genuinely curious.

neilv 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

There are specific philosophies and missions behind various kinds of software for which you might have access to the source code.

The most formalized and principled original one, was unfortunately named "free software". (Where RMS expects to be able to explain that it doesn't mean "you don't have to pay money for it" like everyone already thought, but he wants it to actually means "free as in freedom". And he imagines having this conversation, and people being intrigued by the wordplay, etc.)

Of course what happened is that everyone wanted stuff without paying money for it, which is fine, but most people never learned the principles behind the various philosophies, nor why they are that way. Installing a Linux-based software distro is the same as downloading a freebie "community version" of software decidedly not in the same spirit, is the same as downloading a cracked version -- it's all just "free".

A related thing happened with the Internet, in a sense. The early people tended to be egalitarian and principled, and actively onboarded new people into the culture, etc. But when the dotcom gold rush happened, most of that was quickly swept aside. And most of what was already known and taught about cooperative online behavior was never even learned.

marcus_holmes 4 days ago | parent [-]

Thanks for replying and explaining.

FergusArgyll 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe they're confusing it with snaps?

tombert 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I run NixOS so I have my own opinions on the best way to package software. I'm just saying that I think Flatpak is, if nothing else, good for people who want to transition away from Microsoft.

My parents are both pretty smart people but I genuinely doubt that I would be successful in converting over to Linux if they have to type `sudo apt search my_package` and then `sudo apt install my_package` all the time. For people like them, who have been on windows for the last thirty years, I think that Flatpak is great.

yjftsjthsd-h 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> if they have to type `sudo apt search my_package` and then `sudo apt install my_package` all the time.

As opposed to the much easier `flatpak install com.fqdn.app.name`? Don't confuse underlying package format with CLI/GUI; Synaptic, GNOME Software, Plasma Discover, etc. are fine ways to install normal packages.

tombert 5 days ago | parent [-]

I've had it set up so you can just double-click the Flatpak files, not too dissimilar to an exe download.

the__alchemist 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't have to be non-technical to prefer a simple, non-memorize-text way to install things.

j45 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Agreed.

Also the majority of people like to do things with a computer other than, or rather than work on the operating system.

I like customizing my OS. But it shouldn’t be a barrier or gatekeep beginners out.