We've seen what happens if you have completely unlimited speech. One time last century in Germany, and one time in the USA right now.

Germany's going too far in the opposite direction now, though. I'm actually okay with the rule against insulting people as long as everyone knows that's the rule (note that you can't insult anyone, not just politicians) since it doesn't affect quality discourse yet it keeps low-quality discourse (the kind that dragged the USA into the mud) down. The way they're applying it to discussion about Israel is currently a problem. That's a separate law from the insult one. They're claiming that any criticism of Israel's actions is antisemitic hate speech, which is of course illegal.

Note that supporting the principle doesn't mean I support the implementation. If it were up to me it would be only a slap on the wrist fine except in very severe cases (like organizing a hate protest) and I don't know what level of checks and balances would be enough to ensure the classification of "hate" doesn't devolve into what it has become.

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mcv 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

There's a big difference between creating an atmosphere of hate against vulnerable minorities, and and criticizing a minister of economics.

Criticism of the government is absolutely vital. It's the very reason why free speech is so important. And that seems to be what the article is addressing.

Using "free speech" to silence and persecute minorities, and create a hostile atmosphere for them, is the opposite of free speech, abusing the space it was granted by free speech, and inevitably leads to serious restrictions on free speech, as we're currently seeing in the US.

These two things are not the same.

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ponector 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>> criticizing a minister

But using memes with real Nazi for this, in Germany, is too much. And they got a fine, not a prison term. Fair enough.

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CLPadvocate 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Memes are not critique, they are often (as in this case) just an attack on the personal level. If they are harmless, no one would take them seriously - but calling someone a nazi is an insult in Germany, so everyone who is offended by it, can sue.

	▲	immibis a day ago \| parent [-]
		Germany also has more serious penalties for calling someone a Nazi, specifically.

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mcv 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I guess the article conveniently skipped over that detail.

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immibis 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It wasn't for criticising the minister, it was for insulting him. You're allowed to say "Robert Habeck is incredibly wrong on these particular points, has been consistently wrong for his entire career, and he is poorly suited to being the minister for economics." You're not allowed to say "Robert Habeck is a moron." It's like the Hacker News comment guidelines, but for real life!

One major plot hole: Despite the law ostensibly applying equally to everyone, there is zero chance that Robert Habeck would ever get in trouble for saying "Martijn Vos is a moron." That's because he's an Important Person and you're not.

Germany *is* completely totalitarian on speech right now, but only on the issue of Israel/Palestine.

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CLPadvocate 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Robert Habeck would not get in trouble, because it's extremely improbable that he would ever use inappropriate language. But in general, every politician insulting any other person could face legal action. It happened before and it would happen again. But, of course, the offended person needs to take action and fill a complaint.

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SnuffBox a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's like the Hacker News comment guidelines, but for real life!

The difference is that Hacker News is a website and you can visit another to say rude things if you want with ease, not a country with subjects/citizens.

	▲	immibis a day ago \| parent [-]
		You can also visit another country to say rude things. I can see why this rule is controversial, but I don't think it's a major problem because it doesn't infringe on the right to have and share actual knowledge. Only emotional outbursts are forbidden (by this rule).

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SnuffBox a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think 1930s Germany had 'completely unlimited speech' and while I don't like Donald Trump I'd willingly live under both terms of Trump if it meant keeping the freedom of speech.

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2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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