> "if God undeniably existed, then faith would no longer be applicable."

I kind of see both sides of that.

On the "agree" side, I saw a quote somewhere that said, "that's why it's called 'faith' instead of 'reading comprehension'." If it were that cut and dried, then it would just be a matter of objectively evaluating the evidence, without even any "probably".

On the "disagree" side, the point of faith isn't really the existence of God. Yes, that's the starting point. But much further than that, the point is that we need God's forgiveness - a forgiveness that is completely unreasonable. Faith is "you have, I need, please give" (contrast with love, which is "I have, you need, I give"). The difference between those two postures is why it is faith, rather than love, that is the fundamental bottom line in dealing with God. Knowledge - even certainty - that God exists doesn't remove the need for a faith that goes beyond mere knowledge.

The various ambiguities of the word "belief" reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote, from Reaper Man:

> Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.

>But much further than that, the point is that we need God's forgiveness - a forgiveness that is completely unreasonable.

Why would one need forgiveness from their creator? He created us and the universe we exist in. There is nothing we do or think that is not a result of his design, so why should we ask forgiveness for doing exactly what we were designed to do?

It would be like expecting an AI I created to ask forgiveness from me for something bad it did, this is ridiculous, it's the creators fault not the creations.

The dichotomy you describe only works with a rudimentary notion of faith, which might be better referred to as belief or superstition. It goes along with the image of God as a being, when God is better understood as Being itself. A deeper understanding of faith implies trust, a trust which one might not be conscious of but necessarily underlies and sustains any genuine love. The "you" of God cannot be put in opposition to "me", since God is our true nature, the real "me".

To get a better understanding of these things, I recommend checking out "The Experience of God" by D.B. Hart or the works of C.S. Lewis.

Nicene Christian faith is "You have, I need, You gave".

"he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified"

I agree, but I think that if God undeniably existed it would make faith (in the second sense) more difficult - or at least change how people felt it.

Can you elaborate on the need for forgiveness? Forgiveness for what and by whom?

> On the "agree" side, I saw a quote somewhere that said, "that's why it's called 'faith' instead of 'reading comprehension'." If it were that cut and dried, then it would just be a matter of objectively evaluating the evidence, without even any "probably".

"I don't comprehend what's going on and can hardly read, therefore my views about an invisible sky, man which cannot be proven in any way, are valid"