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| ▲ | closewith 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it's pretty clear that digital nomads, like tourists, use _more_ taxpayer resources because they use public infrastructure much more than the locals, who like most people globally live simpler lives mostly at home. | | |
| ▲ | techcode 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not clear to me. Perhaps we have different ideas about what "taxpayer resources" and/or "public infrastructure" is? I was highly skilled migrant/expat, now "naturalized Dutch", and work for Booking.com - so I know a thing or two about tourism (beyond just traveling myself). Tourists least, digital nomads a bit more, and expats even more - use public infrastructure. But over lifetime, locals use order of magnitude more than expats. | | |
| ▲ | closewith 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > I was highly skilled migrant/expat, now "naturalized Dutch", and work for Booking.com - Interesting. We may know each other. Are you C-suite? > so I know a thing or two about tourism (beyond just traveling myself). Appeals to authority are always suspect, but it takes staggering arrogance to claim employment at Booking.com as your authority on the economic impact of tourism. But you know the old saying about making a person understand something when their pay cheque depends on them not doing so. > Tourists least, digital nomads a bit more, and expats even more - use public infrastructure. You have this order exactly backwards, with tourists using proportionately the most public infrastructure, and residents the least. | | |
| ▲ | techcode 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | While I agree that appeals to authority are suspicious - no idea how "I know a thing or two about tourism" could be interpreted as claiming "authority on the economic impact of tourism". So far your views/opinions seem to be very "black and white". And beyond stating them - I'm yet to see anything to support or even just explain/elaborate them. | |
| ▲ | techcode 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not C-suite - I gave up on management track long time ago. I'm still waiting to see how/why my order of who's using public infrastructure is wrong/opposite. Care to explain? |
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| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Nomads and even more permanent expats use less of the infrastructure and amenities. So what? Public/societal services aren't pay-as-you-go. For example, I also never used any public schools in my current country nor do I have kids of my own who use them, but I still pay for them via my income taxes because that's what's necessary for a functioning society. You're not exempt from paying taxes just because you use less public services. So why should digital nomads be exempt from contributions to the society they enjoy living in? | | |
| ▲ | techcode 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm not saying that digital nomads should be completely exempt from contributions. I am saying that over their lifetime - they use much less of the societal services in their "remote/nomadic" locations compared to lifetime-permanent/locals. And governments calculated that in. | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >I am saying that over their lifetime - they use much less of the societal services If you put it like that, other groups of people also use less societal services. Why aren't they getting the same tax exemptions too? | | |
| ▲ | techcode 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That's something for regulators, politicians and society overall to figure out. Personally - I'm happy for my taxes money to be used for police or firefighters (and other things) and I still hope I never really use/need them. At the same time. If The Netherlands hadn't had 30% tax ruling for expats, wife and I would've went back after my initial 12 months contract. Back in 2010/2011 - even with software engineer salary, until 30% tax rule was granted for me - we were chipping away money we saved up living in Serbia. Back in <=2010 wife and I were earning €1500~€1750 in Belgrade. Saving at least a third of that. In the NL the ~€45k gross (before 30% tax rule was granted) was not enough for rent, food and other normal (no car, not eating out ...etc.) costs. But Dutch had 30% ruling, so even with one newborn we could still make ends meet. And 15 years later The Netherlands has 2 adult tax payers (at 0 prior cost for NL), and 2 children (born there, so same societal/taxpayer cost as any other NL citizen/child). | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >Personally - I'm happy for my taxes money to be used for police or firefighters (and other things) and I still hope I never really use/need them. Then .... we agree? >At the same time. If The Netherlands hadn't had 30% tax ruling for expats, wife and I would've went back after my initial 12 months contract. With all due respect, working for Booking in NL you were not a Digital Nomad, you were a local resident and local worker. While you did get the tax reduction during that time, a local company in NL made use of your labor and not some foreign company like in the case of digital nomads. It's apples to oranges | | |
| ▲ | techcode 2 days ago | parent [-] | | We're mostly agreeing. And while digital nomads and expats are indeed apples and oranges. It seems you're missing the parts where they are the same? Both digital nomads and expats didn't cost the country anything while those nomads/expats were growing up, got education ...etc. Perhaps it's USA centric vs the rest of more "socialistic" countries POV? Outside of USA - (specifically in Croatia, but also many other countries) child birth, subsequent parental leave, daycare, school, college/university and children healthcare are subsidized or even "free". Of course "free" means paid by all the taxpayers of that country. And yes - I think that bringing in expats (implying there being more local business/employers, more corporate and income taxes) is better for a country/economy than bringing in digital nomads. However when economy is heavily relying on seasonal tourism (and it seems like most of countries with digital nomad visa programs are), they also tend not to be the most suitable for other types of services/innovation/manufacturing/etc business. They usually still need to spend more money on building office spaces, change the laws to make it more attractive for business to incorporate there...etc. And overall not feel like a ghost town outside of tourist season. Perhaps Croatia (and other countries with digital nomad visas) are counting on digital nomads leading to more office space being built, some of nomads staying and starting a business, etc | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >Both digital nomads and expats didn't cost the country anything while those nomads/expats were growing up, got education ...etc. Yes. Then why should expats pay taxes and digital nomads not? Especially given that digital nomads will be the first to leave the moment the shit hits the fan and go to another country, while expats are more likely to stick around for various reasons like family, community, kids, familiarity, etc. It feels like the incentives are totally backwards unless your goal is more wealth inequality for the locals, more expensive housings, etc. You're screwing over the people who contribute the most while giving tax breaks to those who will leave on a whim. Also, regarding your previous comment, your example with NL is an outlier in the EU. There's no way other countries here could give expats tax breaks and not collapse their welfare systems which are built on the socialist principles of having people constantly paying in the system, so they can't just do what NL does without going through a revolution. The example is also survivorship bias since plenty of other people moved to NL to work on poverty wages initially lower than in their home countries, and then left because they didn't get to those magic six figure Booking wages. So the expats and the NL government got scammed, and the only winners were are the NL corporations exploiting cheap labor selling them the dream of potential future high wages that might not happen. Not exactly a society I dream of. >Perhaps it's USA centric vs the rest of more "socialistic" countries POV? What does this have to do with the USA? I'm talking from an EU point of view on what other EU countries are doing. >when economy is heavily relying on seasonal tourism Maybe it shouldn't. Because that only leads you into the tourist trap branch of Dutch diseases. Maybe it's best to build an economy on more tangible things that have some trick down effect, and not that only benefits landlords and hospitality business owners. > digital nomads leading to more office space being built How many digital nomads do you know who travel the world only to work in the same office spaces they try to escape from, and not from cafes and beaches? |
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