>I'm just not sure how you could justify calling plant-based meats non-ultra-processed under any useful definition of the term.

It's not a question of whether or not they fit that definition, it's that the definition itself is so expansive that it allows equivocation between food products that are meaningfully different in their ingredients, health outcomes and environmental outcomes.

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buu700 3 days ago | parent [-]

Agreed. UPF-ness is a useful and now-trendy heuristic to determine whether and how to more qualitatively analyze the health properties of a given food, but it's not the final answer. Sugar isn't a UPF (it's in Nova group 2), but I think most people would choose to eat a plant-based burger before a bowl of sugar.

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UncleMeat 3 days ago | parent [-]

I personally think it is less useful than just "junk food." At least that name makes it clear that it is a fuzzy heuristic.

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buu700 2 days ago | parent [-]

I see "junk food" as a value judgement more so than a heuristic. How do you define "junk food"? Most people would agree that most things that are marketed as candy are junk food, but what else qualifies as "junk food"? Off the top of my head, I bet you could ask 10 different people about which of these qualify as "junk food" and get 10 different answers: pizza, pasta, granola bars, burgers, lettuce-wrapped burgers, Impossible burgers, steak, salad with store-bought dressing, canned chicken noodle soup, coconuts, dates, MCT oil, bacon, oatmeal, cheese, mozzarella sticks, French fries, potato chips, baked potatoes, cereal, corn, popcorn, protein powder, protein bars, smoothies, sugar-free ice cream.

"Ultra-processed" may be a little fuzzy at the boundaries, but at least it's a specific enough term that we all know and mostly agree on what we're talking about when we use the term. UPF-ness is a heuristic that can help determine whether or not a certain food is junk, but once you've categorized something as "junk food" you've already decided it's unhealthy. No one has to study or debate whether or not junk food is unhealthy.

	▲	UncleMeat 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		But that's what makes it more valuable. It is honest. There's a value judgement in "ultra-processed" that is just hidden. This is how you get ostensibly serious people saying that frozen lasagna made with whole ingredients and no preservatives is still "ultra-processed" because it is shipped in plastic or that a can of baked beans made with sugar and preservatives isn't "ultra-processed" because it is part of a traditional british breakfast. If you ask 10 different people on the street what "ultra-processed" means you'll get even less consistency. And the value judgement is the only part that has an especially meaningful connection to health. It is admittedly really difficult to do rigorous research on the health impacts of diet, but the connection between "ultra-processed-ness" and health outcomes is super messy. And even when we can get data that suggests negative health outcomes, what's the actual cause? Preservatives? Lack of fiber? Hyperpalatability? Nobody has been able to clearly articulate a cause and if we could then we could just focus on that thing rather than the "ultra-processed-ness."