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| ▲ | MBCook 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| They could just connect to the rest of the national grid to get power from other states when running short. That would work fine. Except then they’d be subject to regulations. And we can’t have that now can we? |
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| ▲ | infecto 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Don’t confuse some of Texas’s shortcomings with faults in the free market system for energy. This is my only issue in these conversations. Not everything the Texas market does is bad and they were not the only grid impacted by the weather storm but certainly the most severe because of the lack of interconnects. | |
| ▲ | dogleash 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Except then they’d be subject to regulations. And we can’t have that now can we? Why so salty? There are n>0 things the federal government does that I disagree with. On a subject I know nothing about why would I assume that Texas is wrong to avoid it's rules? | | |
| ▲ | macintux 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I’d be curious how many people in Texas have died from power loss compared with the rest of the country combined over the last few years. |
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| ▲ | MrMorden 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Congress could remove Texas's exemptions from those rules at any time. It's got nothing to do with whether and how much the Texas grid connects with others. |
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| ▲ | bityard 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is lots of middle ground. Here in Michigan, (most) electricity and gas providers are for-profit companies. But they are heavily regulated by the state, and must get approval from the state before they are allowed to change rates. Our rates are not dirt-cheap, but they are not Coastal either. When I lived in the capital, we got our power from the Lansing Board of Water and Light, which is 100% publicly owned. Their rates are still some of the lowest in the Midwest. The main downside is that until recently their main energy source was coal. (We used to live downwind of the smokestacks. You couldn't smell it, but lung cancer was definitely in the air.) |
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| ▲ | apendleton 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > What is the alternative
Other markets in the US are generally energy + capacity markets -- you get paid both for what you actually provide and for your ability to provide a certain level of power, whereas Texas is an energy-only market (EOM). It needn't be the case that that if you don't do an EOM, you have to have a monopoly. |
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| ▲ | infecto 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Definitely you could operate on a capacity model instead of generation. There are a lot of levers. My issue is mostly around how much uninformed hate a “free market” energy system gets. |
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| ▲ | e40 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Their refusal to not connect to nearby grids is baffling and rooted in their free market ideology as well as their go-it-alone philosophy. It does the citizens of TX a disservice and has resulted in deaths of many of them. EDIT: s/rooting/rooted/ |
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| ▲ | conductr 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I’m a Texas native and I feel one easy change here is simple and cheap. We should popularize the concept of utilizing residential transfer switches and portable generators for emergency backup. It goes along with our go-it-alone philosophy that ultimately the property owner should be responsible for ensuring power when it’s needed. Also, it’s such a super rare weather event (historically) that would ever cause that type of issue again. It also solves for all the minor power losses we have due to old infrastructure, branches falling on overhead cables, etc. It’s really cheap. Ive done it for a grand total of $2000 most of which was to get a real beefy generator so I could just power my whole house instead of only a few circuits. Most people think an installed appliance like Generac or some battery/solar option are the only options, and those often run $15-20k and up. We don’t always need instant switchover, but if it doesn’t come back on in a couple hours I pull out the generator. Apartments and other MF properties will need to approach it differently, but I don’t think it’s possible and reasonable to just let the property owners take ultimate responsibility. After all, most my outages aren’t grid failures they’re some localized wire/transformer issue that is unavoidable. | | |
| ▲ | quickthrowman 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > It’s really cheap. Ive done it for a grand total of $2000 most of which was to get a real beefy generator so I could just power my whole house instead of only a few circuits. Are you talking about something like a 7.2kW portable with a 60A manual transfer switch? I could see that costing around $2000, which is substantially cheaper than a Generac. I found a portable Kohler with 7.2kW for ~$1500. Instead of a transfer switch, you could shut off the main circuit breaker or pull the meter and backfeed the panel through a 60A 2P breaker, that would save some dollars. Just make sure that you disconnect from utility power before backfeeding and be absolutely certain to disconnect the generator before switching back to utility power, you don’t want to find out what happens when a generator isn’t in sync with the utility frequency :) Rapid unintentional disassembly, lol. | | |
| ▲ | conductr 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I might not be using the correct term, I had an electrician install it, but I just flip a switch and it cuts off the grid including back feed then the power in is through what I think is commonly called an RV panel allowing for generator connection. Do agree on operation and order of things, I have it written in the boxes. My generator is the biggest one harbor freight sells. Might not be that beefy but I also don’t need much electricity during these events. I wouldn’t run laundry or my central AC but it’s enough to keep my pool pump running (we don’t winterize here, run nonstop during freezes as they are short enough the pool water never drops enough). Also, this model runs of natural gas which is a big plus for me so I don’t have to keep up with fuel. Keeping fridge running and furnace running is my highest priority but since all my lights are LED I don’t have to think about them. I’m giving the harbor freight one a shot first, my hope is that it last a long time since I’m putting little time on it. If longevity is ab issue I’d probably spring for a kohler or Honda next time. I may add a soft start kit to hvac as last summer we had some outages long enough to be uncomfortable, twice cost us our fridge contents which is expensive and annoying. But primarily, winter protection is highest priority for me as the risk is highest |
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| ▲ | e40 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree, but I read that a lot of the people who had terrible problems that winter a few years ago, many were low-income residents of TX. I think $2,000 for a generator is a nonstarter for them. | | |
| ▲ | conductr 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Everyone had problems that winter. It was pretty universally felt. How you recover from it is where your economic status changes your experience. If you are under insured or can’t come up with your insurance deductible you’re pretty screwed but we can’t solve all the worlds problems with this alone. So my general albeit cold sounding response is “Doesn’t matter.” We should have the expectation that it’s owner responsibility first. After that, we can devise subsidies and such to ensure everyone can retrofit their house. There’s a ton of levers to work with once you admit that the grid and power transmission isn’t some god like thing that never fails You can’t hinder progress because someone can’t afford it. They maybe did have the money if it meant a few bucks a month on their bill, but they were never told this risk existed, we all thought we lived in a modern enough country that we would never be without power for an entire week. But we also have never seen freezing temperatures for a solid week either, not in anyone I knows lifetime including some 90 year olds. Once I know the problem exists, I’d rather spend the $2k and have a solution at hand than take on the full system costs of winterizing/prepping for a once in a century(?) snow storm. That would perpetually make my energy cost go up by 10% or more. It’s the smarter solution with better ROI if people DIY the contingency. |
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| ▲ | const_cast 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Every person in the country has an interest in having electricity. Therefore, every person in the country should pay for electricity. What is the most cost-effective and reliable way to administer something that every single person in a country requires? Taxes and the public sector. It's not rocket science. It's just like Visa and other payment processors. What do you think that 3% on every single transaction is? That's a tax. The difference is you're being taxed and you're buying someone's third private jet. If everyone is gonna be taxed regardless, just nationalize it. At least then we won't have to pay the burden of profit. |
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| ▲ | jqpabc123 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You have companies with different expertise and perhaps innovation. Lack of reliability is not innovation. This is something the Texas "real time power auction" has created and continues to promote. Measures like the one the governor just signed are bandaids meant to cover up the fundamental lack of reliability. There is nothing left to innovate in terms of reliability. The solution really is very simple --- build additional capacity to cover worst case scenarios. This can't happen if providers are forced to continually offer a rock bottom price or lose out in the auction. Some things are too important to leave to the "free market". |
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| ▲ | infecto 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I am going to have to disagree. This is really not about Texas but folks get hung up on Texas. There are ways to have market based systems in the power grid while still maintaining capacity. Having a market based system does not mean you cannot have interconnects. I think Texas gets some things right and some things wrong but I believe it’s too easy to lump everything into the bad bucket. |
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| ▲ | lokar 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| PG&E only runs the grid(s), not generation The government can structure a public market in many different ways (they do this in many aspects of the economy). It’s not limited to real time auction vs single provider. |
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| ▲ | infecto 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Incorrect. They do have generation but it’s not a majority producer. My point being that PGE still is helping set the rate via the CPUC. They are purchasing power through some of the spot markets. They are unable to even manage their own transmission lines effectively though. |
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