| ▲ | thelastgallon 4 days ago |
| This is great news. If costs climb rapidly, homeowners will switch to solar + battery + ( EV, heat pump water heater, induction stove) and disconnect from grid. Grid disconnects will cause costs to rise even more, a virtuous cycle. |
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| ▲ | throw0101c 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > This is great news. If costs climb rapidly, homeowners will switch to […] And what about renters (who are, in the US, often the poorer)? Electricity is an input to industrial and commercial operations, so if companies see their costs rise, they will probably raise prices to maintain margin: this will feed into higher prices everywhere (all goods and services). |
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| ▲ | ViewTrick1002 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They would be forced to pay even higher energy costs if they had to also compete with all these homes which now relies less on the grid. | |
| ▲ | thelastgallon 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And what about renters (who are, in the US, often the poorer)? Then the apartment owners have another revenue stream, build a mini-grid and offer electricity cheaper than the grid. They already do many add-on services for additional revenue: garages, trash pickup, etc. > Electricity is an input to industrial and commercial operations, so if companies see their costs rise, they will probably raise prices to maintain margin: this will feed into higher prices everywhere (all goods and services). All production will continue to move to China, which has built and continues to build vast amounts of cheap electricity and infrastructure. |
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| ▲ | pton_xd 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Wouldn't it be more efficient to centralize the generation of electricity and take advantage of economies of scale? |
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| ▲ | nine_k 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Solar generation has little economies of scale: PV arrays scale linearly, unlike turbines and electromechanical generators. Batteries also scale basically linearly; maybe you can have a better deal if you buy a truly massive amount of batteries, but I'm not certain it's so dramatic. Transmission costs seem to dominate the price structure; I currently pay a generating company about $0.1 / kWh, and pay Con Ed $0.25 / kWh for transmission of that energy. And this is in dense New York City; in suburbia or countryside the transmission lines have to be much longer. Centralized generation makes sense when the efficiency scales wildly non-linearly with size, like it does with nuclear reactors. | | |
| ▲ | lostdog 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Does solar scale linearly when you have to get onto roofs to install it? And when each roof is available for installation at different times, so only small crews can do it piecemeal? | | |
| ▲ | nine_k 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It certainly complicates things a bit, but the roofs are independent, so several small teams can independently work in parallel. So yes, it's sort of linear. Building a large solar installation may scale a bit sub-linearly, if you can e.g. order things in bulk at better prices, and have some electric assemblies done at a factory, more efficiently. |
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| ▲ | mattnewton 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Upgrading transmission infrastructure costs a lot of money (and bureaucracy). Especially in Oregon and northern California where the lines probably should be buried to stop risking wildfires. I’m not sure which path is actually more cost effective for solar+battery. | |
| ▲ | thelastgallon 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Centralized generation is the riskiest for any economy. The targets to bomb (or local drones) are very well known and super easy to disrupt the entire economy. Solar on every roof is the most resilient and cheapest form of energy. Centralization leads to economies of lobbying scale, well connected super rich can oil the machinery to suit their purpose, maximize wealth extraction from everyone, resulting in monopolies/oligopolies, laws to remove competition, laws to maximize profit (with pretenses of protecting people). Warren Buffett does not own utilities out of the goodness of his heart, they are such spigots of money with zero competition. | | |
| ▲ | supertrope 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Return on equity for utilities is relatively low due to capital intensity. They make a lot of money in absolute terms because 5% of a huge revenue figure is billions. |
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| ▲ | dehrmann 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not just the generation; it's also the maintenance. If you own your own rooftop panels and a few go out, it's relatively expensive to bring someone out to replace them...if a mechanically and electrically equivalent replacement exists in 5 years. At utility scale, you're always replacing panels, so you have dedicated staff doing it. | | |
| ▲ | supertrope 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Climbing roofs is in the top 10 deadliest jobs in America. It’s cheaper to drive out into a field and work on ground level equipment than to climb a height. | |
| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | adgjlsfhk1 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | solar panels last 25-40 years. mechanically equivalent means "sits on a roof". electrically equivalent just means "connects to a wire". | | |
| ▲ | dehrmann 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Manufacturing defects happen, trees fall, and panels get dusty. They don't merely "sit on a roof." They're anchored, the anchors have spacing and a form factor, and the anchors pierce the roof's waterproofness. They're not electrically equivalent if they output a different voltage range. |
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| ▲ | dml2135 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Others have replied saying why this may not be the case, but even if it is — you also need to balance efficiency with other values, such as independence and resiliency. I would gladly trade a bit of efficiency to not be dependent on the grid or on providers who can jack up the price on a whim outside of my control. |
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| ▲ | ghaff 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You're talking about big capital upgrades that very few people will make in existing homes. I sure won't. |
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| ▲ | thelastgallon 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Capital upgrades don't require capital, only monthly installments. US has the most advance financial packaging infrastructure that can package anything into a monthly payment. It will be a straight up comparison between (electricity bill from grid + gas for 2 ICE cars + natural gas bill) vs (solar + 2 EVs + heat pump water heater + induction stove). Also, most decisions are not financial but emotional (virtue signaling + status seeking + salesman's ability). Most poor people end up taking incredibly bad financial decisions because a salesman is able to sell. In Texas, if you can talk God/football/beer, and are not a complete idiot, you can sell anything. The people who bought 100K+ Tesla's before 2024 were not going by finance, nor are the people buying Teslas in 2025. A trillion dollar company is born just out of virtue signaling. | | |
| ▲ | ghaff 4 days ago | parent [-] | | And most of the monthly installments for things like solar are basically scams. The more you see the solar salesmen at your door or camped out in the front of Home Depot the scammier they tend to be. But it sounds like you might agree. I did get induction to replace a propane cooktop recently but that's only because I had to get a new range after a fire and induction probably made more sense than it did a few years back. | | |
| ▲ | nine_k 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Get a loan from your friendly credit union on better terms. It requires having a clue though, and being able to organize contractors, and / or do things yourself. | | |
| ▲ | ghaff 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Sounds exhausting. My electrical bill is about $100/month. Doesn't sound like it's worth a major project to decrease. Your mileage may differ of course. | | |
| ▲ | nine_k 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Mine was north of $500 last month :( It starts looking like a battery + a DIY PV array installation just to power the air conditioning alone would pay for itself in one summer. | | |
| ▲ | ghaff 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Of course, it depends where you live. I don't even have AC and don't have electric heat in the winter. So aside from, possibly, new construction, spending a lot of effort/money on PV/batteries/etc. doesn't make a lot of sense. | | |
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| ▲ | dzhiurgis 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It will be $200 in few years. Could be 0. | | |
| ▲ | ghaff 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It will absolutely not be zero once you consider costs, effort, future obligations, etc. But, by all means, do what makes sense for you. | | |
| ▲ | dzhiurgis 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It can be if you over-provision, but I agree, 0 isn’t the sweet spot, especially if you have bad credit. |
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| ▲ | danaris 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That cycle leaves out those who do not have the large amounts of money required to make those capital investments. Indeed, it pushes them farther and farther behind. That doesn't sound like "great news" to me unless you're a serious classist. |
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| ▲ | lezojeda 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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