I thought we were supposed to be replacing natural gas appliances with electric ones, but it's become ruinously expensive to do so. Not only are they more expensive to operate due to high electricity rates, the panel upgrades for higher power draw are outrageous.

▲ danans 4 days ago | parent [-]

> Not only are they more expensive to operate due to high electricity rates,

Most electric appliances are much cheaper to operate, even in places with expensive electricity like MA and CA. This is especially true for appliances like heat pumps due to their >100% "efficiency", and if you are somewhere with cheap clean electricity (Pacific Northwest) they are a no-brainer.

> the panel upgrades for higher power draw are outrageous.

With smart splitters and some planning, panel upgrades can often be avoided:

https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/articles/electrical-panel/...

▲ quesera 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I suspect that GP meant "service upgrades" are expensive (e.g. 100A to 200A from the street).

Panel upgrades are just the most visible, but not individually expensive, part.

	▲	danans 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		> I suspect that GP meant "service upgrades" are expensive (e.g. 100A to 200A from the street). I understood that, but my point is that smart panel and smart circuit splitters upgrades can eliminate the need for a service drop upgrade.

▲ inferiorhuman 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

  Most electric appliances are much cheaper to operate, even in places with expensive electricity like MA and CA.

Nope. I'm in PG&E territory. Electricity is too expensive and natural gas is too cheap. Even compared to my not-high-efficiency gas powered furnace a heat pump is more expensive to run. At best electricity is about $0.40/kWh and natural gas is $2.45/therm.

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baggy_trough 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I suppose their solution will be to greatly increase the price of gas.

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danans 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Nope. I'm in PG&E territory. Electricity is too expensive and natural gas is too cheap.

Yes, the electricity rates in the IOU territories (PGE, SCE, SDGE) are horribly high.

But in publicly owned LADWP or SMUD, the average rate is around $.22/kWh, depending on usage patterns. Not Pacific Northwest cheap, but definitely better than PGE.

	▲	inferiorhuman a day ago \| parent [-]
		Yes, muni power is significantly cheaper. Unfortunately it's in the minority. PG&E is the dominant player in most of California. In the Bay Area only Alameda and Santa Clara (cities) have muni power. PG&E's astroturfed (hi Greg Dewar!) and lobbied hard against it each time it comes up.