Remix.run Logo
elric 4 days ago

Instead of radar, more and more places are installing ANPR (aka ALPR) cameras here. They measure how long it taked you to drive between two locations, if it's faster than the speed limit, the fine will find you. Tiny Belgium already has more than 5k ANPR cameras.

Predictably, the system is being (ab)used for all kinds of monitoring and tracking on top of speed enforcement. And in a certain sense, all those irresponsibly fast drivers with radar detectors are partially responsible for the further erosion of privacy on the road.

Klonoar 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I remain amazed that Seattle doesn’t do this for the 99 tunnel that goes under the city. People routinely fly through there at like 40 miles over what the limit is - and due to a bus lane addition going northbound, they exit the tunnel at a high rate into some very varied traffic.

The tunnel is a toll road that’s photo enforced. Should be an easy ticket in the mail if your enter and exit time are way too close or something.

(I’m guessing it might be the age old “can’t prove it was you driving” defense?)

SoftTalker 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> can’t prove it was you driving

They don't have to if it is a civil infraction. As I understand it, in many jurisdictions a camera ticket is a fine but no points. They just say "the owner of the car is responsible for who they allow to drive it" same as insurance liability.

potato3732842 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Civil infractions are a giant end run around people's rights when you're talking about these size fines. They can't push it because if they do that risks ending the gravy train.

whoamii 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

At least in WA state there’s a “it wasn’t me” option to contest and the thing will just disappear.

Klonoar 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

This is what I was referring to, yes.

bgnn 3 days ago | parent [-]

In Germany you get the fine with the photo where the face of the driver is very visible/recognizable 99% of the time. Even in villages have this type of cameras so they can't be expensive. Oh you get fined for driving without a seatbelt too.

joezydeco 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The solution there is to drive a British car.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081607/Speeding-pu...

whoamii 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is where we have privacy laws. :)

jkubicek 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ah yes, the Shaggy Defense

potato3732842 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Because if they did it people would vote for it to be changed.

Klonoar 2 days ago | parent [-]

Do you actually live in Seattle, or are you just drive-by commenting?

Seattle is very vocal in one direction while often voting in the other. The idea of cameras for catching speeding/etc is not a new concept here and is seemingly one the public is letting police do more of.

Dylan16807 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It sure doesn't sound like those systems were built to go after irresponsibly fast drivers.

elric 4 days ago | parent [-]

That was their original intent, but of course, once you have a dense network of cameras that can sort of reliably track individuals, people find all sorts of other uses for them.

Dylan16807 4 days ago | parent [-]

You're sure it wasn't largely to milk fines from people going slightly over? What was the initial threshold for fines? What is it now?

prmoustache 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Nobody is milked. The rules are simple and trivial to follow. Those that are fined are really asking for it.

An upper limit is not the desired and accepted speed everybody needs to aim for.

elric 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Irrelevant. Speed kills. Slower is better.

Dylan16807 3 days ago | parent [-]

1. If you're calling my first question irrelevant, the one about why the system was installed, then why were you the one originally making claims about that, and using it to blame certain people?

2. "Slower is better." is a stupid half argument. Speed limits are a tradeoff between the benefits of going fast and the benefits of going slow. If it wasn't a tradeoff then the speed limit would be walking speed everywhere on every road.

elric 3 days ago | parent [-]

1. If people drove the speed limit, there would be no need for privacy invasive traffic cameras. The blame there does lie squarely with the people who can't seem to get that, and who keep killing and maiming thousands of people every year.

2. There are very few benefits to cars going faster. If you want speed, trains are much more efficient at high speed. Fast cars are wasteful and dangerous.

Cars being limited to walking speeds in cities would be great. But failing that, I'm happy with the local groundrule: 30km/h if there's no bike path, 50km/h if there's a raised bike path, and 70km/h if there's a bike path that's separated from the road by at least 1 metre.

tmerc 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

There will always be "good reason" for the invasion of privacy. If you didn't actively oppose their use, you're also to blame.

Dylan16807 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The speed limit is not set at exactly 1 below irresponsibly fast.

Are all these cameras in cities? Are there any on separated highways?

3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
technick 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is easily managed by hiding your license plates. I haven't shown my real license plate in years (It has a ping identity sticker on it) and no plans on doing so, it's to protect my own privacy.

maest 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Protecting ones privacy comes with the incidental side effect of making it difficult for society to penalize one for not abiding by the rules.

Bank robbers wear ski masks for similar privacy concerns.

technick 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Then society should do something about the invasion of privacy happening everywhere. Take Flock camera systems in Colorado as an example, Colorado has been trying to limit access to ALPR data to only municipalities within the state for immigration related cases. The state has even went as far as creating a law. Loveland police department gave federal officials (ICE, DEA, ATF) access to states ALPR data, completely bypassing the law on the books. Data like this has been weaponized and if you can't see it, not sure how I can help you.

amanaplanacanal 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Also apparently ICE agents in the US.

mixmastamyk 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

How does this work? I’d like to avoid tracking but stay within the law if possible.

technick 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Hiding your license plate will almost always be considered an offense, but is it one cops actively care about? Luckily in my state I vary rarely see cops on the road making my risk much lower. In the case of getting pulled over, its a $75 dollar fee in Colorado that I am happy to pay, it won't change my behavior.

You can also leave your cell phone at home. Disable anything broadcasting from your vehicle, like bluetooth, wifi, and onboard cell connectivity for telematics. Remove the RFID chips on your car rims (assuming you have a recent model vehicle). Remove TPM sensors from your wheels (A lot of them have part of your vehicle VIN in the packets). Tint your car windows... and remove anything that is unique, like stickers off your vehicle. Partially are completely block your license plate from being read by ALPR's.

Do all of those and you're not as trackable as you are not doing them today.

3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
multjoy 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It doesn't.

It just means that they've not gone at a speed sufficiently egregious for a detective to be handed the packet to work out the vehicle's true identity.