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egypturnash 3 days ago

Every city builder ignores something that most American planning ignores: mixed-use districts.

The neighborhood bar. The grocery shop down by the corner. The bakery in a remodeled house. The multi-story apartment block with a couple restaurants on the ground floor. The plumbing business in an old warehouse completely surrounded by houses. The 150-year-old pastry shop that's been in its current location for fifty years and seen the neighborhood change around it. The run-down building whose owner has been letting it rot for four years and turns out to own about fifty properties in similar condition throughout the city. All of this is stuff I see around me in the Mid-City neighborhood of New Orleans. I see it even more so if I go down to the French Quarter, which is still shaped like an old European city with cars awkwardly driving through it. Half the buildings down there have people living in apartments atop ground-floor shops, with hidden courtyards instead of houses awkwardly dropped into the middle of vast road-facing yards. The cook at one of the Quarter cafes I'm a regular at lives in a place right across the street, above a magic shop and an art gallery and a bar. Things are dense and intertwingled and weird and exciting.

None of that. Just, here's the residential zone, here's the commercial zone, here's the industrial zone. It was fine as an abstraction when Will Wright was trying to make something that'd work on a C64 but it all feels so absurd when I look at the actual world now that computers are powerful enough to run Sim City in a Mac emulator running in your browser with only a couple percent of your CPU time.

The archetypical city builder has "people live in the suburbs and drive into the city to work and shop" baked so, so deep into its core.

(Apparently Cities Skylines 2 actually implements this now that I go searching? Huh. City builder's really not a genre I play much and the continued persistence of this abstraction is one of the reasons I bounce off of it, it's impossible to make a place I feel like I'd want to live as a non-driver.)

CalRobert 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Note also that Sim City, at least, ignores the reality that American cities are mostly vast swathes of parking with a building sprinkled here and there in the parking-scape.

https://humantransit.org/2013/05/how-sim-city-greenwashes-pa...

watersb 3 days ago | parent [-]

I dunno, a vast sea of parking spaces with the occasional building sums up suburbia for me.

But ok, it's not called "SimSubUrbia"...

BlarfMcFlarf 3 days ago | parent [-]

But it has the suburban cars and suburban zoning, without the parking lots or even a full simulation of the generated traffic (because that would render it nearly unplayable). It sells new generations of potential urbanists on the idea that a car centric city can work as anything other than a failing pothole filled parking wasteland.

internet_points 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The utopian, immanent, and continually frustrated goal of the modern state is to reduce the chaotic, disorderly, constantly changing social reality beneath it to something more closely resembling the administrative grid of its observations.

-- James C. Scott ~~in his review of simcity~~ Seeing Like a State

db48x 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You could play Workers and Resources: Soviet Republic, which has no zones at all. And apparently you start with apartment blocks, not single–family housing. And if you want sidewalks, you have to place them. All of them, individually. I haven’t played it (or CS2) yet, but I’ve been considering it.

natebc 3 days ago | parent [-]

Workers and Resources is fantastic!

You even have to lay sewer lines with an appropriate gradient and/or place lift stations to get it to the treatment plant.

Also: it has one of the best soundtracks ... of anything anywhere of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZROr6D2Sb8&list=PLdAfbEvw-2...

smadge 3 days ago | parent [-]

Treatment plant is optional.

natebc 3 days ago | parent [-]

Dispose of your waste water naturally!

FuriouslyAdrift 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cyberpunk 2077 is freakishly realistic. Of course, they did hire actual urban planners to design it. https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-city-planners-make-night...

brettermeier an hour ago | parent [-]

That's not even close to a city builder...

jkhdigital 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Japan’s fairly simple urban zoning scheme seems to work quite well. There’s essentially a sliding scale from light residential to heavy industrial, but “lighter” uses are always allowed in “heavier” zones.

gottorf 3 days ago | parent [-]

> but “lighter” uses are always allowed in “heavier” zones.

As far as I know, this is true of the American zoning system, as well.

bobthepanda 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

One of the major differences with the American system is that the Japanese government only has twelve types of zones that local governments are allowed to use. https://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.htm...

American zoning codes get really complicated really fast, particularly around what businesses are considered low-nuisance in what neighborhood. Especially the moment people start getting worried about parking. Particularly home businesses, like daycare, hair salons, even the humble lemonade stand can all be zoned down to a single hair.

daemonologist 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the US you can usually build "lighter" within a category, up to a point, but not across categories (e.g. you could build a single family home in a high density residential zone, but not in a commercial zone).

I'm not sure how that compares to Japan's system, but from GP's comment it sounds like you can cross categories there.

Aeolun 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Japan’s system is more about what would disrupt QoL around it. If you want to open a small bakery in the middle of a residential neighborhood you can do so. Not really economically viable, but some people run these things out of just the front room of their house.

bestouff 3 days ago | parent [-]

Why wouldn't it be economically viable ? It's been done like this for centuries in France.

Aeolun 3 days ago | parent [-]

Most people buy around the stations. It’s not theoretically impossible, I just don’t get the idea that these places are exceptionally profitable.

joshvm 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It depends on your local law. Where I live, we have mixed use, office residential, general office and warehousing. All broadly allow home building of various types. Going the other way, the rules are quite detailed as to what sort of commercial operations you could start from a residential property in those zones, subject to superseding HoA restrictions.

BenFranklin100 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s not. US zoning often strictly regulates usage.

db48x 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is almost never true in practice in the US.

ethan_smith 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cities Skylines 2 only implements mixed-use as building variants within traditional zoning, not the organic neighborhood evolution you're describing where buildings naturally adapt between residential/commercial uses over time.

fstarship 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cities skylines 2 implementation is still pretty lackluster in related aspects.

Lots of buildings have forced carparks.

People are content to walk absurd distances.

I almost preordered when I saw mixed use zoning.

_aavaa_ 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Forced car parks for buildings is at least accurate for a North American context.

chickensong 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Cities skylines 2 is pretty lackluster

Fixed that for you. Huge fan of CS1, pre-ordered CS2, major regret. CS2 release felt like everything wrong with the game industry. Not sure I'll ever pre-order or support Colossal/Paradox again.

zem 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

mediaeval city builders (e.g. "kingdoms and castles") typically don't have zoning at all, though arguably they are more like "small town builders" in that you place individual buildings rather than areas.

philipwhiuk 3 days ago | parent [-]

They're also very abstract really - a cottage provides a game-balance worth of people.

notatoad 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

this was basically a cheat code in the original cities skylines. if you zoned 4x1 alternating residential/commercial/office, you can pack in way more residents, they were happier, and there was less traffic.