You can have radical empathy with somebody while standing against and fighting every single thing they stand for. Indeed empathy /helps/ you fight better, because you can begin to fight root causes rather than fighting symptoms, and help people heal rather than just shouting them down.

You as an individual are not required to do this if you don't want to, but if a movement wants to be successful then a degree of empathy with those who are resisting the movement is likely necessary for success.

To have empathy with a view is not condoning it

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tremon 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Indeed. But demanding empathy as the only valid a counter-strategy is, which is what the GP was doing. Appeasement doesn't work if your opponent isn't following the rulebook.

From my point of view, you don't reason with immature children, you give them a time-out. You don't hand them weapons of mass destruction.

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LexiMax 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The sort of understanding the GP is promoting doesn't have to be used empathetically.

It can also be used on bad faith actors by giving you better avenues of winning over the audience - which is the only real point of continuing a conversation with one.

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wizzwizz4 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Correct: but giving them a thousand timeouts doesn't help, if you still need to give the thousand-and-first. It mitigates the immediate problem, but it also ties up your resources. Eliminating the problem at its root, if that's possible, is a more effective strategy: if we can take away the ability for the real bad actors to get loyal followers, by learning how to change those followers' minds, they won't have anywhere near as much power.

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kelseyfrog 3 days ago | parent [-]

Exactly. The distal cause is that the Compromise of 1877 halted an unfinished Reconstruction. What I'm calling for is simple - the natural and final conclusion of Reconstruction. It might be 148 years late, but it's the antidote to the disease.

	▲	vpribish 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		damn. fucking. straight. pussyfooting with racist traitors has kept us paying for the original sin of slavery into another goddamn century. popular vote for president nonpartisan redistricting of every state ranked-choice-voting everywhere limits on corporate money in politics end the filibuster strictly define supreme court size, terms, and appointment rules age limits for congress finish reconstruction mess with texas there is a lot of technical debt in this project

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btilly 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

We live in a democracy. In a democracy, you don't get to deny people the vote simply because you view them as children. And, sadly, these "children" have around half the votes.

If you are personally not capable of attempting empathy, that's fair. As I said, it is frustrating and hard. But a political culture where nobody attempts empathy is what has allowed grifters playing up the resulting culture war to gain political power, and put themselves in a position to aim for a dictatorship. If everyone keeps doing the same old, same old, the totalitarian outcome is guaranteed.

I'll make this concrete. Right now, many in Trump's base are dissatisfied with the handling of the Epstein affair. As much as you may disagree with a random Republican, the odds are that your differences are not as important right now than winding up united against the idea of an authoritarian pedophile running the country. But if the only emotion that they get is anger about all of the areas where there is disagreement, they won't have anywhere to go but back to Trump.

Is that outcome really what you think is best?

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fknorangesite 3 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

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zeroonetwothree 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Didn’t they ban the books using democratically elected representatives that legally passed a valid law?

If anything we actually have the 1st amendment to stop democracies from going too far!

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btilly 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Reading exercise for you.

Re-read the comment that you replied to, and find out where I said the same thing.

Most of these would-be book-banners do not actually want to create a totalitarian state. They honestly believe that they live in a democracy that was hijacked in 2020. They are being walked into accepting dictatorship on the principle that you have to fight fire with fire. When you meet them with fire, you're confirming the world-views that make them useful tools for Trump and co.

	▲	Jotra7 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		[dead]

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accrual 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> a degree of empathy with those who are resisting the movement is likely necessary for success

A great salesperson I learned from would often say something like "don't fight the resistance, join the resistance" with the implication that one must see through the other party's eyes before you can have a chance to really affect them. One must make them feel heard and understood rather than fought against.