| ▲ | Havoc 6 days ago |
| Are there inflation indicators that aren’t government controlled? Don’t think anything coming out of trump influenced bodies is worth the paper it’s on anymore |
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| ▲ | duxup 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Nothing as complete or reliable (historically speaking) as the government numbers. Truth is they're just the best at doing it, or were. |
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| ▲ | throw0101a 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Are there inflation indicators that aren’t government controlled? There have been research programs that collected the data themselves: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Billion_Prices_project |
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| ▲ | Nicook 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are plenty of indicators, not like its an exact science. Can trust the government one to be always under-reported, the incentive is obvious. I'm a fan of gold prices for longer periods of time. |
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| ▲ | AtlasBarfed 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What you really need to understand about inflation, is that we've had particularly exceptionally low long-term inflation in America for the last 50 years, outside of stagflation in the '70s. And this is all enabled by globalization and global trade. Globalization fundamentally provides arbitrage for two things. Labor costs, and environmental regulation. Because there were a lot of poor desperate countries that would build your stuff for near slave labor conditions. In particular, China of course. But China has now passed through its phase of poor desperation. It is now an urbanized economy. So of a lot of other poor desperate countries aren't quite as poor desperate. Globalization is fundamentally enabled by the US Navy and US military supremacy guaranteeing shipping trade on the oceans. This has not been the historical Norm. It's actually historical anomaly caused by the power vacuum of world war II, and secondarily by the fact that the Cold war was between the US and maritime power and Russia, who are effectively landlocked. Some scholars term China as a continental power, especially cuz of their history of invasion like the Mongols, but unlike Russia, China has a very large coastline with a lot of ports that aren't locked in by Arctic ice. They are a hybrid Continental and a maritime power, and based on their shipbuilding, their ambitions are to become a maritime power. This combined with American lack of enthusiasm for maintaining this global order, likely means that globalization will come to an end. And that means onshoring production back from China. We'll see if this actually happens, but that is the trend long-term. And that involves a huge amount of switching costs, which essentially is going to be inflation. I'm certainly not going to sit here and say that Trump's economic policies are correct. Of course, the proper way to handle a transition of reonshoring our production from our previous 50 years of globalization would be gradual and controlled. Not a bunch of stupid chaotic tariff policies. But essentially what Trump is doing is in line with everything I've described. |
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| ▲ | bigbadfeline 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > What you really need to understand about inflation, is that we've had particularly exceptionally low long-term inflation in America for the last 50 years, outside of stagflation in the '70s. What you really need to understand is that we can, and we must absolutely, generally and non-exceptionally have low inflation at all times. There's absolutely no sane reason to have high inflation in a low-corruption financial system - none! > Globalization... US Navy... US military... China hybrid... American lack of enthusiasm for guaranteeing shipping trade on the oceans. A bunch of red herrings meaning nothing... It's not lack of enthusiasm, it's the overabundance of enthusiasm for tariffs and sanctions backed by the same US Navy & US Military to maintain a restricted trade regime which, not-accidentally, results in the US public being trapped in a monopolized and inflationary market. > And that involves a huge amount of switching costs, which essentially is going to be inflation. You mean, the population will bear the costs via the inflation tax, while the rich will be getting richer, because... historical norms should not be broken, especially this one? Historically, messed up trade led to global wars, actually, it's either global trade or global wars, there's no middle ground. You failed to mention that important historical norm which is also one of the ways to make the rich richer. The historical norms are something we should absolutely steer clear of, not use them as excuses for more nonsense in the future! | | |
| ▲ | AtlasBarfed 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Do you think I'm advocating for inflation as an institution? History is history. Maybe you think AI is going to herald in some era of non-inflation and free people from the control of the ultra rich. It's pretty apparent to me that AI isn't going to do that. It's going to do very very very very very much the opposite. I agree that disruption of trade leads to wars. Usually of very large scale but we haven't had one of those since the advent of nuclear weapons. And people keep misinterpreting my comment that I believe Donald Trump has good policy. I absolutely don't. That's why I said the tariffs are insane. Theoretically what Donald Trump wants to do is bring manufacturing back to his white voters in the former middle class, and bring the US into an isolationist stance. Biden did not put troops on the ground in Ukraine. I believe bush II would have enthusiastically. Biden did not roll back the tarriffs Trump imposed in his first term either. So generally the overall political trend in the United States is to be like this. Ask the rest of your comment. You could ignore history if you want and hope for something different.
But.... Well you should know the quote about history, and I don't want to have to repeat it:-) | | |
| ▲ | bigbadfeline 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > [Trump... Biden... ] I've never mentioned either, nor do I assume what you think about them. > So generally the overall political trend in the United States is to be like this. The question I'm pondering isn't "what the trend is to be" but rather "why it has to change". Thinking about who and how could change it should wait, lest we end up putting the cart before the horse. > You could ignore history if you want and hope for something different. Being careful about not falling into the same traps as before isn't "ignoring history", it's learning from history, which is mostly the opposite of repeating it, because repeating the same thing with the same bad result is the definition of idiocy. | | |
| ▲ | AtlasBarfed 4 days ago | parent [-] | | So that's kind of the point. The Democrats are basically going this direction too. The Republicans since world war I have been inherently isolationist. |
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| ▲ | judahmeek 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > But essentially what Trump is doing is in line with everything I've described. No. Trump's tariffs are too unfocused to accomplish any goal besides increasing American inflation from what I've read. Trump's tariffs on raw materials, metals, etc make no sense whatsoever. Motivating the creation of new mines or refining facilities should have been done through subsidies, possibly combined with promise of future tariffs. And, obviously, Trump's tariffs on raw materials raise the cost of construction & composite products, which will likely push manufacturing out of the U.S. | | |
| ▲ | AtlasBarfed 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I didn't say it would be effective. My point is that it is thematically aligned. I agree that it is counterproductive assuming that was what his goal is. Our military budget remains a comically bad allocation of funds. If we're going to be isolationist and we are, we should cut our number of carrier groups in half and throw all of that money into subsidies. |
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| ▲ | amy_petrik 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Globalization is fundamentally enabled by the US Navy and US military supremacy guaranteeing shipping trade on the oceans. >This has not been the historical Norm. It's actually historical anomaly caused by the power vacuum of world war II, and secondarily by the fact that the Cold war was between the US and maritime power and Russia, who are effectively landlocked. >This combined with American lack of enthusiasm for maintaining this global order, likely means that globalization will come to an end. Oh here friend, I think you forget to add a citation to all that, here's your citation so people know where the idea come from (not you):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Zeihan | | |
| ▲ | AtlasBarfed 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I like a lot of wood Zion says especially since it provokes thought. He is a hot take internet guy. Do I really think China is going to disappear over demographics? I think if you would gone back to the 1980s he would have looked at the Japanese demographics and said the same thing. Japan is still around and it's doing fine. Are we going to see privateers and one eyed captains pirating international trade like he once predicted? Not in the age of carriers. But what navies can do is they can harass ships: board them, inspect them, delay them. Arbitrarily close shopping lanes and force them to take other routes (China could do this to make their exports preferable to say Vietnams). Zeihan parrots a lot of other geopolitical thought and international relations thought. The general question post cold war was when the US will go isolationist. I believe largely that did not happen because US industrials wanted offshore production for cheap labor. So the US maintained its global focus. With China, and Xi in particular, doing the things that they are doing to him in capitalism in China, that is forcing a reevaluation of companies have their production. Sure. You could move it to Vietnam or Malaysia or Thailand or various countries like that, but that still places them within the Chinese military sphere. When you consider that we have a country like Mexico south of our border which is extremely productive, more productive than practically any other country. We currently have our production outsourced to any degree, why not move our production to Mexico? Most of our natural resources, especially with the discovery of shale oil in The Dakotas is sourceable from the northern hemisphere. But we'll see what happens |
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| ▲ | tmaly 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't trust any government numbers regardless of who the president is. There will always be pressure to fudge the numbers to make who ever is running things look good. There use to be a billion prices project out of MIT that got shutdown years ago because it show higher inflation than what the rulers at the Fed wanted to show. I believe its funding was pulled or something like that. |
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| ▲ | deeg 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Do you have any evidence it was shut down by the Fed? I looked briefly at the BPP numbers and they aren't that far off the CPI. There were even a few times it was lower than the CPI. There was a 2 year period that BPP was noticeably higher but it eventually converged. https://thebillionpricesproject.com/datasets/ | |
| ▲ | qzw 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What’s crazy is that of all the fudgeable numbers in economics, consumer inflation is the one they should try to be the most honest about. It’s something that consumers can more or less directly observe, so having an official number that’s much below people’s “wallet meter” is doing nothing but erode trust in government. In fact, given that a steady inflation rate actually leads to bigger and bigger price increases, most people are going to feel worse about it at a visceral level. If the government wanted to build credibility with the public, they’d come up with a metric that better aligns with people’s actual economic situations. But then that might lead to people demanding higher wages, so I guess it’s a nonstarter in America. | | |
| ▲ | gottorf 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > of all the fudgeable numbers in economics, consumer inflation is the one they should try to be the most honest about. A lot of government liabilities are tied to CPI, so there's a strong incentive on the part of the government to under-report inflation. |
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| ▲ | elzbardico 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | epistasis 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Honesty would require admitting that the parties are different. They are not the same, they have different values, and we can see that by who gains and loses power in the party. Which actions are unacceptable, and which actions are rewarded. The difference is stark! | | |
| ▲ | lovich 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | He is just lying. His edit shows that he isn’t actually focused on both sides but is trying to muddy the waters to blame specifically democrats. He couldn’t even keep the mask on for two statements | | | |
| ▲ | elzbardico 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "We have no political system at all, we have a sort of corporate party with two wings, both financed by the national security state..." -Gore Vidal All the other stuff, all the heady discourses, all the piety about the downtrodden, be then the minorities from one side, or the poor rural white man from the other, it is just a fucking smoking mirror, just tools to have loyal soldiers to their cause. | |
| ▲ | elzbardico 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | lentil_soup 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > EDIT: The democrat brigade is busy downvoting me to deny reality. Poor children! Per the guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. | |
| ▲ | jasonlotito 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | HN Guidelines Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. |
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| ▲ | abtinf 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Gold. The purchasing power of Gold has been remarkably consistent over the long term. That is, if you convert the gold to dollars, how many eggs could you buy? To learn more, read up on the work of Keith Weiner of Monetary Metals, or listen to the early episodes of his podcast “The Gold Exchange”. |
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| ▲ | Workaccount2 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem with gold is that it's price fluctuates just like any other commodity. The practical uses of gold accounts for only ~8% of gold mined, while half is for vanity (jewelry, a luxury product) and the rest for speculation and reserves. Similar to fiat, most of the value in gold is in people believing it has value. | | |
| ▲ | jjk166 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That's exactly why gold is a useful proxy. The price of gold is pretty much purely a function of how much money speculators have in their pockets. If inflation is high, it means there are more dollars that can go into gold speculation, driving up the nominal cost of gold. If the cost of gold is going down, it means the dollar is strong by comparison. If you used a proxy that had a significant utility in its own right, like say oil or steel, the price would be a function of how efficiently it can be produced and how strong the economy at large is to demand its consumption. | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I assume you never tried looking at the price of gold in the 80s and 90s? i.e. it declined in nominal rates and collapsed by almost 4x if adjusted by CPI | | |
| ▲ | jjk166 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't see how that conflicts with my point. The period from Jan 1978 to Jan 1982 was a momentary spike, peaking January 1980, which was nearly 3 times the long term average from 1971 to 2008. If you set that as your baseline, everything looks like a massive decline, but really the average was quite stable from 1982 to 2004. Note that the period of the spike in gold price (1978 to 1982) was a period of extremely high inflation. | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > but really the average was quite stable from 1982 to 2004 It was falling at a stable pace for 20 years in nominal terms. I don’t see how can someone see anything else looking at the price chart. And inflation was still 4-5% through the 80s and didn’t fall to 2% until 2000. So it was a horrible asset to hold. Just buying government bonds in the 80s and 90s was a much better idea. | | |
| ▲ | jjk166 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > It was falling at a stable pace for 20 years in nominal terms. It was not. Look at the chart: https://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-... Between 1984 and 1996, 131 of the 156 months were within $50 of the average nominal price, and the lowest point, December 1984, was only $89 below the average. In particular from 1993 to 1996 the price was never more than $10 off average. If you bought gold in July 1979, which was an all time high at the time, the nominal value of your gold never decreased. Looking at the inflation adjusted numbers there is much more volatility, but again, the value of gold in Jan 1989 was the same as the value of gold in Jan 1979. If you happened to buy gold during its peak in Jan 1980, you wouldn't see an inflation adjusted profit until October 2024. Gold is not generally a good asset to hold to make money, but that's not what is under discussion here. The question is can the value of gold be used as a proxy for inflation. Gold going up is like smelling smoke - you know there is a fire. I am not arguing that inhaling large quantities of smoke is the best way to protect yourself during a fire. | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The question is can the value of gold be used as a proxy for inflation So it can’t unless you stretch the period out so such an extent that there basically just 1-2 data points left? Or are you claiming that prices and money supply between ~1980 and 2000 increasing by more than 2x? Because otherwise it’s an extremely lagging indicator. More like what’s left after the fire than early smoke. |
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| ▲ | rsynnott 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Similar to fiat, most of the value in gold is in people believing it has value. Much moreso, really, because the value of money is kinda sticky; it's really difficult for it to change _quickly_ because a lot of stuff is essentially priced months or years in advance. Even the pretty dramatic inflation in developed world countries in '21-'23 would not be particularly exciting price action for gold, which really can swing quite dramatically in a short period of time. | |
| ▲ | anigbrowl 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This misses the point that you can establish the purchasing power of gold very easily vs a basket of common groceries or consumer goods. vanity (jewelry, a luxury product) Jewelry traditionally functioned as a rough store of value because it's easy to sell quickly (albeit at a steep discount), and it makes a remarkably reliable Veblen good, as a glance at the Oval Office will demonstrate. |
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| ▲ | wqaatwt 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So there was no inflation whatsoever between 1980 and 2000. In fact there was slight deflation since the price of gold actually declined? It’s easy to make data to fit your narrative when you ignore everything that conflicts with it.. | |
| ▲ | dchftcs 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The price of gold is not immediately responsive to goods inflation, it can be lagging or leading and the correlation can also fluctuate. Long term it's been good at tracking money supply but short term it doesn't necessarily give you a timely signal. | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Lagging by 10-20 years like between 1980 - 2002 when it declined even in nominal terms despite consumer prices more than doubling? If you bought in 1980 you would have had to wait until 2024 to break even when adjusted by CPI… | | |
| ▲ | dchftcs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Over a time frame of multiple decades, it's been volatile but overall kept pace with money supply. Timing is always tricky, even with SP500 which has given higher return. Maybe "good at" was stretching it, but there are things that lagged forever, such as a retail savings account and Japanese government bonds. It's tracked CPI better than silver. | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Due to obvious reason only the period after Bretton Woods counts. So 55 years. 1980 and 2001 was almost half of that and the real price of gold declined by 4-5x. If you take out the spike in the late it’s still almost 2x or so compared to the 70s (very volatile period). This wasn’t lag. M2 supply grew continuously and increased by >3x during he two decades while even the nominal price of gold declined. After the gold standard was abandoned it became a highly speculative volatile asset. |
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| ▲ | tim333 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I asked perplexity and there are a few independent calculations (ShadowStats, Truflation, Billion Prices) that put the rate at about 10% https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-is-the-us-inflation-ra... |
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