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soared 7 days ago

Super interesting read! I work in payments for context and see tons of different payment methods every day. People tend to find a payment method they like, and really only ever use that one method. It’s very hard to get someone to switch - even if an alternative is better. It’s just so ingrained to swipe that same card, click the same autofill button, etc.

Digital wallets did somehow over come this, and those would be a super challenging but potentially valid approach #4. If Zenobia is in Apple Pay, google pay, link, etc it’s natural and easy for customers, saves money for merchants, and disrupts visa/etc without disrupting anything else (ie making people us QR codes).

Tough problem. You need a Jony Ive on your team to help solve it.

Or do like pix and give everyone $1500, but only if they use Zenobia :)

lelanthran 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Tough problem. You need a Jony Ive on your team to help solve it.

I don't think so. A Jony Ive will not be in a position to solve the actual problem - what use is a non-universal payment mechanism to consumers and to retailers?

I read the linked page and don't see answers to the main adoption problem: how is the purchaser supposed to pay?

1. Purchaser has to download the app? Okay, but purchaser already has a few equivalents on their phone (Pix, etc) - added friction!

2. How does the App get money to make payment? Purchaser has to fund a new account? Okay, but that is more friction!

3. How does merchant accept the payment? Do they need a new payment terminal? Must their payment terminal be updated with new software? Even more friction!

I've worked in the EMV space, even quite recently, and merchants do not want to update and will only do so when forced to. Any new payment system (QR codes, etc) needs around 5 years (maybe more) before it is universally accepted.

The best way, where I am, to rollout a new payment terminal is to pitch it to the banks, who then offer it to the merchants who have accounts with them.

Adding new functionality to EMV terminals is a lot easier these days, since most of the new terminals are Android, and the vendors have app stores for third parties to write software for these terminals (Pax has Maxstore, etc).

Now, maybe I missed it, but I did not see this application on Maxstore, or some of the other stores. I could have missed it, because these stores have literally thousands of payment applications.

The long and short of it is, you came up with a non-universal payment method, and predictably it did not take off.

quesomaster9000 6 days ago | parent [-]

I'd argue that the problem is that QR codes shouldn't be an 'app' problem, and yes there's a chicken-egg problem with PoS terminals verifying incoming bank payments but that's a separate issue.

If you want to do account-to-account payments you can show the customer the account/routing number, amount & invoice ID - but obviously that's high friction and the customer needs to login to their account and send a payment with lots of manual data entry.

Making yet another app, adding a financial intermediary, requiring you to link your bank account - these aren't solving the friction points.

We already have bank apps, when I scan a QR code in an industry-wide format it should ask me or confirm which bank app to open and pre-fill all the payment information.

So from my perspective, the problem is that FedNow in the US, and Open Banking in the UK - they could have just dictated "Banks must support EPC QR, or EMV QR code scanning and deep-links", and QR code payments would happen very quickly - even with NFC/RFID you can do passive scanning to achieve the same thing.

* Choose Account * Confirm details * Press send

That's about as easy as you can get for push payments, with a real industry-wide standard for communicating payment intents via NFC/QR. But both FedNow and UK OpenBanking are structured in a way which requires friction, and onerous regulation, through their clunky APIs - meaning you can't actually solve that problem on your own.

myflash13 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yup it’s that simple. That’s how QR code payments work in many countries in Europe.

lelanthran 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I think my main point still stands: a Jony Ive type person would not be any help whatsoever.

Nursie 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pix seems to be working really well in Brazil.

I'm adjacent to it in that we provide some of the infrastructure around identity etc in Brazil, and it seems to be really popular. I think there's a similar system in India.

In the UK you can do payments via Open Banking. I'm not sure how popular it is, but I've used it a few times to send money to Wise to then send over to Australia.

ttoinou 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The best players to disrupt Visa Mastercard duopoly would rather be a consortium of payment processors such as Shopify / Stripe / Google Pay / Apple Pay and banks taking in sandwhich Visa and Mastercard (where the money is stored, where the money is spent)

closewith 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Pix, UPI, etc have definitively shown that Governments are the best players to disrupt the Visa/Mastercard duopoly.

gabll 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

I agree, and I hope initiatives like the Digital Euro [0] will have success soon.

[0] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...

ta12653421 6 days ago | parent [-]

I do not think that it will fix these issues, but I gurantee you that in this present box some additional things will be brought to you ;-)

ttoinou 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There might be survivorship bias here. One could also argue that Governments are the best players to get and maintain a monopoly or duopoly (:

closewith 6 days ago | parent [-]

Well, that's definitely true, and it's also how the MasterCard and Visa monopoly remains dominant. Just look at the extreme backlash of Trump's administration against the Brazilian Central Bank's plans to sell the Pix protocol abroad.

myflash13 6 days ago | parent [-]

There’s a geopolitical reason for this. Ability to print a world reserve currency and apply sanctions to control capital flow are among the primary tools of American power.

closewith 6 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, I'm aware. The dominance of the dollar and the US financial services corporations is no accident.

This further reinforces that it's a government that's maintaining the Visa/Mastercard duopoly and it will be governments that break it.

WorldPeas 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Would not the best stakeholder to have on your side be companies like clover or toast, aside from ecommerce? I think the most concrete foothold one could have is brick-and-mortar POS acceptance, and now that places don't have to run their own registers this is probably easier than ever to push out to the masses.

Xss3 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm hoping steam builds their own.

lan321 6 days ago | parent [-]

They could probably make decent money with card graphics. I'd probably pay a couple bucks for a Gaben or an R6Siege card. Much more interesting than metal cards.

crote 6 days ago | parent [-]

My previous bank already offered this: for 5 bucks extra you could get your own image printer on your debit card. They are one of the most popular banks around here, yet I rarely see anyone with one.

lan321 5 days ago | parent [-]

I've seen it as well, but for me, it'd be better to have premade images, and Valve can make images that interest me and aren't too cringe.

It's not a massive business, but it's probably good side money since many banks offer it. It probably costs 5 cents to print on it, and you can easily get me to give you 2$ for it. Up to 5$ if I really like it or you catch me in a moment of weakness at 2 AM.

And they can probably try to make it a big business. They managed to get people to spend stupid money on skins, levelling Steam accounts, etc, so there are probably whales who'd collect cards. For example, if you get a special card skin unlock once you 100% a game, or you just add rarity to them. The chances aren't huge IMO, but I'd have never guessed people would pay the money they pay for skins and levels anyway, so..