I think I misunderstood that you talking of axiomatization of mathematical or related systems.

The original discussion are about the formulation of "axioms" about the real world ("the bus always X minutes late" or more elaborate stuff). I suppose I should have considered with your username, you would have consider the statement in terms of the formulation of mathematical axioms.

But still, I misunderstood you and you misunderstood me.

▲ godelski 7 days ago | parent [-]

  > you talking of axiomatization of mathematical or related systems.

Why do you think these are so different? Math is just a language in which we are able to formalize abstraction. Sure, it is pedantic as fuck, but that doesn't make it "not real world". If you want to talk about the bus always being late you just do this distributionally. Probabilities are our formalization around uncertainty.

We're talking about "rationalist" cults, axioms, logic, and "from first principles", I don't think using a formal language around this stuff is that much of a leap, if any. (Also, not expecting you to notice my username lol. But I did mention it because after the fact it would make more sense and serve as a hint to where I'm approaching this from).

▲ joe_the_user 6 days ago | parent [-]

Why do you think these are so different?

Because "reality" doesn't have "atomic", certain, etc operations? Also, it's notable that since most reasonings about the real world are approximate, the law of excluded middle is much less likely to apply.

If you want to talk about the bus always being late you just do this distributionally. Probabilities are our formalization around uncertainty.

Ah, but you can't be certain that you're dealing with a given distribution, not outside the quantum realm. You can talk about, you can roughly model, real world phenomena with second order or higher kind of statements. But you can't just use axioms

We're talking about "rationalist" cults, axioms, logic, and "from first principles", I don't think using a formal language around this stuff is that much of a leap, if any.

Sure, this group used (improperly) all sorts of logical reasoning and so one might well formal language to describe their (less than useful) beliefs. But this discussion began with the point some made that their use of axiomatic reasoning indeed lead to less than useful outcomes.

	▲	godelski 6 days ago \| parent [-]
		`> Because "reality" doesn't have "atomic", certain, etc operations?` That's not a requirement. The axioms are for our modeling, not reality. `> but you can't be certain that you're dealing with a given distribution, not outside the quantum realm.` I guess I'll never understand why non-physicists want to talk so confidently about physics. Especially quantum mechanics[0]. You can get through Griffiths with mostly algebra and some calculus. Group theory is a big plus, but not necessary. I also suggest having a stiff drink on hand. Sometimes you'll need to just shut up and do the math. Don't worry, it'll only be more confusing years later if you get to Messiah. [0] https://xkcd.com/451/