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vlugorilla 4 days ago

A 6 re-org does not mean a '51% attack' was successful. In that case, we'd see unbounded-depth re-orgs/no blocks mined by any other mining pool (assuming the adversary censors other mining pools, as this one does).

It does mean an adversary with a high amount of hash got lucky. I noted there's a discrepancy between their claimed network hashrate and pools' claimed network hash rate.

They may not be including their own hash rate in the network's, in which case they'd need to exceed it. Having 51% would only be 34% of total.

They're an unreliable narrator and I wouldn't trust any data from them. There's insufficient evidence to claim they have 51% of the network's hash power.

(https://nitter.net/kayabaNerve/with_replies)

vlugorilla 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Qubic never actually hit 51% btw. Don't fall for it.

However they do have a large enough hashrate to perform multi-block re-orgs with their selfish mining strategy.

They disabled API hashrate reporting so that they could lie about it.

Keep mining and ignore the noise.

(https://nitter.net/tuxpizza/status/1955191610410401816#m)

reorder9695 4 days ago | parent [-]

I am not that well versed in crypto. I understand the concept of a blockchain and what an n block reorg is, but what is the downside of a reorg? Like who can profit financially and why?

johnpaulkiser 3 days ago | parent [-]

You get all the money from the block rewards for those blocks if you reorg other miners blocks out.

cyanydeez 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

America would be screwed if owning 51% of its value meant you could rewrite ownership.

*gestures wildly*

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 4 days ago | parent [-]

Good thing you need 30 percent, a larger number

leokennis 3 days ago | parent [-]

Didn't know ChatGPT was on HN

red-iron-pine 2 days ago | parent [-]

GPT has been shaping conversations on HN, directly or indirectly, since GPT-1 mate.

Reasonably creditable studies put 30-40% of social media having some sort of AI or automation. This is just the low hanging fruit.

mvdtnz 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What's a "6 re-org"?

acjohnson55 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm a little rusty with the terminology, but in a blockchain, the canonical current block is the one that has the greatest amount of proof of work (I think they call this the heaviest chain). Typically, each new block is the descendant of the most recent block. But it is possible to create a heavier chain from an earlier block. This invalidates any transactions on what was previously known to be the heaviest chain, and is called a reorg.

The farther back, the less likely a reorg is, so to have a reorg that invalidates is blocks is extremely unusual.

If one entity has a majority of the hash power, they gain the ability to try to force reorgs with a likelihood that increases with their advantage in hash power.

I typed all this before realizing I could have recommend you ask an LLM, and it probably would have given you a better answer.

creatonez 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> I typed all this before realizing I could have recommend you ask an LLM, and it probably would have given you a better answer.

Please don't. This would be useless spam, and is completely rude. Do we tell people to "Just google it?" here?

acjohnson55 3 days ago | parent [-]

It's different in that there's no need to go hunting through search results. This is what Claude responded when I just asked it: https://claude.ai/share/684fa294-ee35-4044-8344-99e1ceb2e643

I don't think that's spam at all, and I don't think I did anything special in my prompt that someone with less background knowledge could have done.

tromp 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

User skarz did indeed ask an LLM, which got [flagged] since the LLM gave a distinctly worse answer. Expand the [9 more] below to see it.

jmholla 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This was a great answer. I'm glad you spent the time on it. Though I am curious what the 6 indicates.

ningen_000 4 days ago | parent [-]

Six blocks

skarz 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

tromp 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

No, it's not 6 blocks longer. It just needs to be 1 longer (i.e. 7 blocks since the last common block), which guarantees a higher cumulative difficulty and thus all honest miners will switch to the new branch, obsoleting 6 blocks on the old branch.

skarz 4 days ago | parent [-]

Well, there you have it. GPT-5 failed a basic explanation lol.

uncircle 4 days ago | parent [-]

Many such cases

1270018080 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It would be impossible to enforce, and a place that HN that has leaders who evangelize AI as a cure-all would never do it, but "I asked AI and here's what it said" comments should be against the rules.

dragonwriter 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Actually, they shouldn't, because then people will do it without announcing them, and you want them to be open.

They're almost invariably low quality and deserving of downvotes for that reason, but being open is better than them being camouflaged.

4 days ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Why?

Most such comments are actually informative, and the honesty about asking an AI is an important detail. This particular one was heavily downvoted, as it should have been, because it was wrong. It was still a human writing, trying to be helpful.

dsr_ 4 days ago | parent [-]

You shouldn't downvote entries that are wrong, you should present evidence against them. People shouldn't feel penalized for being wrong, just not rewarded for it.

However, you should downvote for doing things that hurt the community -- and "I asked ChatGPT" hurts the community almost as much as "I googled this for you" does.

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent [-]

Downvoted for disagreement and for mentioning voting, but I'm telling you why because you think I ought to say something if I disagree, which I'm able to do in this case.

It's fine to downvote things that you believe are wrong or simply disagree with, and I have read mods on HN say that downvoting for disagreement is okay. Asking or insisting for more from an HN user is presumptuous, and discussion of voting is largely considered off-topic and therefore not really what the guidelines suggests we should do.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43560543

> Downvoting for disagreement has always been fine on HN. People sometimes assume otherwise because they're implicitly porting the rules from a larger site, but that's a mistake.

> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

More to the upthread point, generated comments are against guidelines:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33950747

> HN has never allowed bots or generated comments. If we have to, we'll add that explicitly to https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, but I'd say it already follows from the rules that are in there. We don't want canned responses from humans either!

These are quotes from dang, not my own. I'm just a HN user, which is why I found the quotes to help everyone make up their own mind what the guidelines say.

dsr_ 3 days ago | parent [-]

I note that the body of your comment implicitly agrees with me that providing evidence is a good thing :)

The character of a community is formed by what it does more than what it says it does.

aspenmayer 3 days ago | parent [-]

I would tend to agree that it usually does benefit the discussion to say why one disagrees instead of a simple drive-by downvote, but when folks have already agreed to disagree or are in the process of reaching such agreement, more rabble-rousing inclined folks tend to jump into the fraying thread to sow discord, so I understand why it’s not in the guidelines that we must specify why we downvote or flag instead of just doing so.

More from dang on this topic here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12334384

The whole comment is worth a read, so here’s just a taste:

> Our goal is to optimize HN for intellectual curiosity, which requires a higher signal/noise ratio. Downvotes dampen low-value comments. I know downvotes do bad things too, but that's the good thing they do, and it's big. Taking that away and/or increasing the noise with a flood of people disagreeing about their disagreements would not be an optimization.

NooneAtAll3 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

who are "they" you're talking about?

vlugorilla 4 days ago | parent [-]

"They" refers to Qubic (by Sergey Ivancheglo), a blockchain network that uses a "Useful Proof-of-Work" system, so it is not built for traditional cryptocurrency mining that solves arbitrary puzzles. Instead, it uses the collective processing power of its miners to train an AI. Qubic's AI-training work is performed by CPUs, same as used by RandomX (Monero's mining algo).

Qubic was able to orchestrate its network of miners to temporarily halt their AI-related tasks and redirect their collective CPU power to mine on the Monero network instead.

Also, Qubic has implemented an economic strategy that involves selling the Monero it mines for a stablecoin like USDT and then using those funds to benefit its own ecosystem and attract more miners, and renting hardware to gain more hash power. The proceeds from the sale of XMR are used to buy Qubic's native token (QUBIC) from exchanges. These purchased tokens are then "burned" or permanently removed from circulation.

sidewndr46 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

This seems oddly similar to the whole IRON/TITAN thing years back, but with extra steps.

greazy 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What's their objective?

treyd 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

My guess would be to turn the crank of a ponzi scheme until it falls off.

However,

> Qubic's AI-training work is performed by CPUs, same as used by RandomX (Monero's mining algo).

I don't understand how this makes any sense at all.

fruitworks 4 days ago | parent [-]

I've looked into the "source code", and it doesn't. There is no such thing as useful PoW. Qubic isn't actually a decentralized cryptocurrency. It's closed source, runs as a EFI executable, and is only accessible from their discord channel.

The attack is no different than paying miners to join a malicious pool. It works as long as money flows in.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 4 days ago | parent [-]

There is such a thing as useful proof of work. Qubic may not be doing it but it does exist. The linked papers [1][2] are examples of way to do it. They aren't 100% "useful" but rather achieve partial efficiency by essentially forcing miners down random paths in a manner that limits the ability to complete work ahead of time or otherwise "cheat".

1. https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/1379

2. https://eprint.iacr.org/2023/1059

contravariant 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Proof of useful work feels like it's one and a half steps removed from discovering seigniorage and reinventing money.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 4 days ago | parent [-]

I mean that's just proof of work. PoUW is just an attempt at converting some of that work into something worthwhile and not pointless hash grinding.

There's a lot of re-inventing the wheel in the cryptocurrency space but on the formal academics side of the space people are very cognizant of what they are working on and their work is focusing on improving very specific properties of consensus algorithms.

nullc 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There is such a thing as useful proof of work.

Not really-- or, rather, the security provided by proof of work is only proportional to the part of the cost above the fair value of the useful work.

One of the main idea behind POW security is that you spend energy and the thing you get for it is income in the blockchain. And so if you mine unfaithfully your work will end up on a chain of debased value or won't end up in the eventual consensus chain at all.. so your effort is burnt out.

Now imagine a POW that costs $5 in energy and does $5 in "useful work" --- well in that system you can now attack for 'free'. Or say it costs $6 in energy to mine plus due $5 in "useful work". There your security is related to the $1, the $5 is mostly coming along for a ride.

There are other problems with "useful" proof of work: e.g. A POW function should ideally be approximation free and optimization free... if an attacker invents a better version they gain an advantage. So e.g. if the miner detects that this particular work instance is 'hard' they can just discard it and try another. This makes it really hard to do much of anything 'useful' except the most contrived kinds of 'useful' without creating vulnerabilities.

But difficulties aside, the fact that outside benefits don't contribute to security (or at least don't contribute much) makes the whole idea space kind of unexciting.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Not really-- or, rather, the security provided by proof of work is only proportional to the part of the cost above the fair value of the useful work.

This is only partially true for a number of reasons.

> Now imagine a POW that costs $5 in energy and does $5 in "useful work" --- well in that system you can now attack for 'free'. Or say it costs $6 in energy to mine plus due $5 in "useful work". There your security is related to the $1, the $5 is mostly coming along for a ride.

This is one aspect however you make assumptions about the rewards that are not necessarily true. If rewards only payout on a cycle or if the rewards have a locking/"vesting" schedule before they become accessible. There's a lot of ways to make attacks more expensive/nonviable but without the "useful work" aspect, they've not provided meaningful benefits to the protocol and therefore haven't been integrated.

> There are other problems with "useful" proof of work: e.g. A POW function should ideally be approximation free and optimization free... if an attacker invents a better version they gain an advantage. So e.g. if the miner detects that this particular work instance is 'hard' they can just discard it and try another. This makes it really hard to do much of anything 'useful' except the most contrived kinds of 'useful' without creating vulnerabilities.

Now with this you'd see that the research papers explicitly were tackling this problem. The one is implementing an SMT solver/optimizer for large, expensive problems. It uses random walks (forcing the miner to bias their choices in specific random ways) based on a VRF or their results are invalid. The efficiency is only 50% of course however that doesn't mean the price is 50%, just that the energy efficiency is 50%. The market on problems to be solved of course will still be priced on supply/demand (give or take parameters) and if there is insufficient utilization, mining falls back to a traditional PoW algorithm.

So in a sense what PoUW is attempting to do is to supplement the valuation of the underlying tokens via production/cash inflow rather than purely relying on demand for tokens to pay the transaction fees.

Also I do want to point out that those papers aren't just making claims, they include a lot of verification and proofs to demonstrate the functionality of the systems in question.

> But difficulties aside, the fact that outside benefits don't contribute to security (or at least don't contribute much) makes the whole idea space kind of unexciting.

The interest is in being able to produce a digital resource (that can be used for consensus) from a physically hard task while actually producing something of value as a side effect.

Gold and other metals were valuable as currency because they were difficult to mine however their value increased because practical uses for the metals increased demand beyond the synthetic demand as a currency. That increased incentives for mining which led to more mining. Eventually it reached equilibrium.

Also notably outside of a given PoUW algorithm's viability as a PoW, it's still important research because every PoUW algorithm that is game theoretically sound is viable as a decentralised market for computation/work where cheating is effectively non-viable.

fruitworks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I will have to read these papers then. My intuition is that it's impossible to usefully use PoW to train neural networks because you have to rely on user-submitted training data in order to work which allows you to cheat by pre-determining the solution to your own work.

It's not a terrible idea, but I've yet to see it be inplemented. Gridcoin is one typical example where it's just PoS with "useful PoW" tacked on for token distribution, and doesn't actually use PoW for security.

fruitworks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Gain media attention and pump their coin.