| ▲ | jjangkke 6 days ago |
| I used to trade options and had about 99.5% success on all my trades The problem is the 0.5% of the time, it erases all the gains made on the successful ones. I'm convinced without information edge or some capital sunk cost edge (for HFT) you are literally just flipping coins when it comes to trading. What's dangerous is fixation on strategies that form after a period of success. All in all, I think just buying stock and holding is the best and most successful approach to making money. Maybe when AI becomes sentient it will know on which days it make sense to buy and sell iron condors with huge ass wings.... |
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| ▲ | flessner 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| That's a common pattern in trading strategies with negative skews or tail risks. Even large hedge funds, like LTCM, can fall into this same pitfall. For anyone interested, I can recommend the book "Systematic Trading" by Robert Carver. You don't have to be into algorithmic trading, the sections on risk management and positive vs negative skews are already worth the read. |
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| ▲ | augment_me 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Have exactly the same experience as you. Had a period in my college days where I had a neural network running that could successfully trade on patterns of periodicity of non-chaotic windows of the asset. But as soon as the system would go back to being chaotic, and there was no way to identify WHEN the system was chaotic and when it wasn't, the trades would go to shit and I would lose all gains. I was up about 400-450% at an end of a successful cycle, which was 2-4 months, and then it could be a year of decline with gains being eaten up by the option issuers. Now I only do long-term funds/stocks and have: a) much less anxiety about losses
b) more money. |
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| ▲ | er4hn 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Is this the financial version of the 3-body problem? | | |
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| ▲ | andrepd 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Option trading is notoriously difficult. HFTs simply don't take a position at all: they build portfolios that are as neutral as possible in every measure (not only delta, but in vol, its higher order terms, higher order delta terms, etc). This is very difficult to do unless you have substantial capital to absorb short term fluctuations, but if you do you can capture a consistent and very low risk profit. |
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| ▲ | mhh__ 6 days ago | parent [-] | | HFTs are typically market makers so they don't really build a portfolio as per se anyway (in practice you can target a certain position obviously) |
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| ▲ | Projectiboga 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The best is just buying the whole market via a index fund. Much lower management and overhead costs. Trying to trade without being online all the time is a battle against time delays and costs. To buy stocks, and especially options you are always against the bid/ask spread. The basic math problem for a statistics major is the Gambler's ruin problem. And basically your chances are your money over the whole table's money in total. Even worse if you don't have an exit strategy your chance of going bankrupt is near certain if the odds are even slightly below 50/50. That bid ask spread and incomplete order completion drive your odds down, and for short term trading it is basically a zero sum scenario. |
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| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent [-] | | This is what passive traders tell themselves to feel better about letting institutionals have free reign with their money. If there was a best strategy basic economics would tell you that it immediately becomes not the best strategy. | | |
| ▲ | overfeed 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Because it lacks specific criticism, your comment feels a lot like shallow dismissal template that can be deployed against any position one disagrees with, e.g. "This is what $(non-DIYers) tell themselves to feel better about letting $(electricians) have free reign with their money". Substitute with PaaS, banks, healthcare providers as needed. | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent [-] | | My comment is shallow because it is not attempting to prove that active investing is better. It's saying, "I've heard people blurt out a list of reasons not to actively manage their portfolio and it's always been from a position of laziness or fear". There is a way to advocate for SPX or VOO or Fidelity 2045 and it's not by saying that these are the optimal strategies. |
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| ▲ | dvfjsdhgfv 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As a counter-argument, from [0]: > The Medallion Fund, which has been available exclusively to current and past employees and their families, surged 80% in 2008 despite hefty fees; the Renaissance Institutional Equities Fund (RIEF), owned by outsiders, lost money in both 2008 and 2009; RIEF declined 16% in 2008 A cynic in me would say that Simons used a better strategy for the Medallion Fund than for the RIEF. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Simons#Controversies | | |
| ▲ | simantel 6 days ago | parent [-] | | The Medallion Fund does use a better strategy than REIF. It only worked up to a certain scale where they started moving the market though, which is why they ended up kicking out outsiders. REIF just lets them use Medallion as marketing while getting those sweet AUM fees on a massive fund. |
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| ▲ | flessner 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When you look at the market with a zero-sum perspective it becomes apparent that both active and passive investors earn average market returns - collectively they by definition are the market. However, active investors have higher trading fees/management costs, so they are bound to perform at least slightly worse on average. It's just mathematics. | | | |
| ▲ | andrepd 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is the best strategy for someone who does not do this full-time (and for many people who do!). That is the point. A trader with experience, working in a firm with deep pockets and terabytes of historical data and FPGAs that can execute his/her strategy and a legal team and an engineering team... can outperform you yes x) | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Well I certainly can't argue with something that is italicized. But I should say that any engineer familiar with the AI tech stack could have bought NVDA at any point in the last five years knowing how big their moat is. That same engineer could have sold monthly covered calls, taking 5 minutes out of every month to do so. And before you say it, no, they wouldn't be full port NVDA. | | |
| ▲ | karp773 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Wouldn't selling covered calls on Nvidia have been like selling a goose that lays golden eggs? | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent [-] | | The ones that assign, yes. But nvidia pays like one cent per share in quarterly dividends so the real golden eggs are the call premiums. Otherwise you're just trying to buy the goose low and sell it high. |
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| ▲ | andrepd 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Jesus, don't quit your day job to become a trader is all I'm gonna say. | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Can you at least provide specificity to match your derision? | | |
| ▲ | andrepd 6 days ago | parent [-] | | It's trivial to say in hindsight "if you had just bought XYZ in January you would have 80% gains by now!". Yet this is pure confirmation bias. Moreover, surveys routinely show that amateur day traders do not consistently beat a global stock index in a statistically significant manner. Extrapolating from past data with N=1 to demonstrate that "any tech person can outperform the index" shows a crass lack of mathematical reasoning, which in my opinion demonstrates why you're unsuited to professional trading. | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Okay since you're just tossing insults I'll just say that you don't need hindsight to have known that Nvidia is selling shovels in an AI gold rush. |
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| ▲ | pawelduda 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can you elaborate? | | |
| ▲ | Kranar 6 days ago | parent [-] | | I won't elaborate too much, but consider a situation where the vast majority of of participants just bought a basket of diversified index funds and what the effect would be on the stock market... it would effectively entrench existing companies at their current levels. Regardless of whether Apple or Microsoft or whoever is profitable or not profitable, their relative market cap would basically remain static since people are not buying stocks on the basis of performance but simply buying stocks on the basis of their relative market cap as it existed at some moment in time. Index funds work because not everyone buys them, they work because the majority of capital is allocated and constantly being rebalanced in a way that tries to reflect the performance of a corporation. It's only in this circumstance that an index fund, or any kind of passive investment, can be of any utility by leveraging the work of those who are actively trying to assess the genuine value of a corporation. | | |
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| ▲ | topologie 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would highly recommend that you read Mandelbrot's books and Nassim Taleb's books. For Mandelbrot, I'd recommend starting with The (Mis)Behavior of Markets.
For Taleb, maybe start with The Black Swan. With those books you'll be able to fully understand why even if/when AI becomes sentient, it will still not help avoid blow ups. (One reason among many others is, for example, that there are things that cannot be properly forecasted, no matter how hard you try or how advanced your model is, doesn't matter, there's a limit to what we can know and what we can't know about the future...) Extra: Check out also Thorp's A Man for All Markets. |
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| ▲ | drumhead 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fundamentally yes you are. Making money comes down to managing your risk. Cutting your losses quickly and riding your winners. |
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| ▲ | ranger_danger 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Other people I've worked with on complicated trading strategies seem to be of the mindset that at best all you can ever hope for is basically breaking even... but my boss is convinced his spaghetti strategies with 500 variables can somehow win more often than anyone else has ever figured out. |
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| ▲ | mtlynch 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >I used to trade options and had about 99.5% success on all my trades Do you mean this literally or is that an exaggeration for effect? I'm not sure how you'd do that unless all your trades are like selling a put with a $50 strike price expiring in a month when the stock is trading at $100. |
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| ▲ | chollida1 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It depends on how they measure profitability, but a 99% win rate isn't uncommon if you just write options. Covered calls are a good example, you own the stock and sell calls with a strike that is in the money. You make money on your option as it either expires worthless and you win getting to keep the premium you got paid to write the option or it expires in the money and you sell the shares to the option holder at the strike. In both cases you can claim you didn't lose money on the option. But you did lose out on potential profit from your share as you were forced to sell them for less than they are worth on the open market and its very easy to get into a case where you would have been better off if you hadn't wrote the option in the first place. If you manage your own money you can say you didn't lose on the option but you probably did on the underlying stock. If the stock closes lower you lost money on the stock but make a tiny bit from selling the option. If the stock closes higher than the strike you wrote you "make" money on the option from the premium but lose out on profit as you have to sell your stock for lower than what you could have in the market. So again you can say the option didn't lose money but you are worse off than if you hadn't wrote the option, assuming it went up more than the premium you got from writing the option. So amateur traders can fool themselves into thinking they are geniuses as their option leg doesn't lose money but the overall trade still makes them worse off than if they hadn't of sold the option at all. | |
| ▲ | OutOfHere 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Do you mean this literally or is that an exaggeration for effect? As a fellow options trader, I can confirm that it is spot on what is seen with SPY; it is not an exaggeration at all. | | | |
| ▲ | 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | blitzar 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > 99.5% success on all my trades Winning trades made $0.01, losing trades lost $10k. | |
| ▲ | mac-attack 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Pennies in front of a steamroller |
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| ▲ | dist-epoch 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I used to trade options and had about 99.5% success on all my trades. > The problem is the 0.5% of the time, it erases all the gains made on the successful ones. Nassim Taleb calls this "eating like chicken and shitting like elephants" |
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| ▲ | SilentM68 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I agree with your suggestion of just buying a stock and holding it, but if AI ever becomes sentient, we may well end up being the commodities in their trading exchange |
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| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Held stocks provide minimal gains. Perhaps a bot to sell calls. Then your main risk is wiping out potential upside as you cry into your pile of realized gains. |
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| ▲ | fyrabanks 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | High reward, high risk. I have a day job and don't really want to sweat the details. I have over 140% gain on my long term holdings this year alone--with continued investment and on top of compounding from two decades. I'm quite happy as a Boglehead. | | |
| ▲ | rytill 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > Boglehead > 140% gain on your holdings this year Choose one. | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Generally true but nvda and pltr are normie stocks and can account for these returns from this year. | | |
| ▲ | lerchmo 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Boggle head is basically pick 2-3 vanguard etfs and check back in 25 years. | |
| ▲ | andrepd 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | But then it's not a Boglehead lol | | |
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| ▲ | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > minimal gains Vanguard says I've had a 12% rate of return. I guess I could have done active trading if I'd gone on fewer dates | | |
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| ▲ | OldfieldFund 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is 100% accurate. The only way to make money for 99.999% of traders is to trade with a firm. You should not trade on your own. You will lose in the long term. |
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| ▲ | edem 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| this sounds like you had poor risk management...or didn't have any. I have a strike rate around 55% but all my trades are 3:1 reward:risk and i don't risk more than 1% on any one trade |
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| ▲ | adamiscool8 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This doesn't make sense. If you had a 99.5% success rate, you could simply use a fixed $ stop and clean up. I agree you need an information edge, but the difficulty of finding one inversely correlates with your scale. Buying and holding is the best strategy for almost everybody - but that is orthogonal to whether trading is a "coin flip" vs mining an edge. |
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| ▲ | OutOfHere 6 days ago | parent [-] | | It does make sense. A small fixed stop loss is just asking to be triggered. A large fixed stop loss will result in a zero-gain zero-loss scenario over many trades. More generally, there is no optimal amount of stop loss. It ultimately gets auto-stopped out at 3:30 pm, although by then it could have gone nearly to zero anyway. Either the strategy works or it doesn't, and with Trump manipulating the market on random days with significant news, it increasingly doesn't. | | |
| ▲ | mapontosevenths 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | OutOfHere gets it. Think about it in terms of probability. The closer to the current price your stop loss is the higher the odds of it being triggered by random market fluctuations. The same applies to your profit target. This means that if your profit mark is $10, and your stop loss is $5 you will lose roughly twice as often as you win, all other things being equal. What you actually CAN do is use smart money management, (something like the Kelly Criterion) to ensure that you properly capitalize on any slight edge you do manage to find without going broke in the long term. That of course requires you to find a bet you can win 51% of the time, and that you be made of iron when it comes to sticking to the plan. Most folks can't. | | |
| ▲ | adamiscool8 6 days ago | parent [-] | | All of these points are irrelevant. If you have the data that shows 99.5% win rate, you would have the data on your expected win size, and could compute a fixed loss stop that would keep you on-side. In the example, which I'm assuming must be hyperbolic, your average win would only need to stay >1/199th of your average loss. I would agree that if a person cannot manage their positions to this, that person should stick to investing. | | |
| ▲ | 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | OutOfHere 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The market is adaptive, particularly with options, and will adapt to bust your approach in a heartbeat. It will in general adapt to bust a lot more sophisticated approaches. This is not physics. The underlying assumptions change. | | |
| ▲ | adamiscool8 6 days ago | parent [-] | | In general, yes - no edge is forever. But that doesn't mean trading is a coin flip where no edge can exist. The market is adaptive because humans are adaptive - but, for example, their machine offspring are often slightly less adaptive and create opportunities for persistent returns. Even more so for most retail where your position size isn't creating slippage. | | |
| ▲ | OutOfHere 6 days ago | parent [-] | | I can try a dynamic intermediate stop-loss point, with the intended goal that is not too early where it triggers often, and not too late where the loss mounts geometrically. This is intended to greatly limit the max loss per trade, which is good, but it still has significant risk of being triggered unnecessarily. I am highly skeptical that this will work, because I even see in the chart that it doesn't, but it's worth an actual test. | | |
| ▲ | adamiscool8 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, optimizations of this form can work to manage tail risk on an edge and can reproducibly lift expectancy for a strategy. GP is essentially claiming no positive edge can exist, which is false - though these edges may be short-lived and dependent on particular market regimes. |
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| ▲ | OutOfHere 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | With regard to anyone who is skeptical of the assertion of Trump manipulating the market, and this has cost me thousands of dollars, I refer you to https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/every-fkin-day-bro-glimpse... |
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| ▲ | OutOfHere 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Try IWM brother. |
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| ▲ | lotsofpulp 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > I'm convinced without information edge or some capital sunk cost edge (for HFT) you are literally just flipping coins when it comes to trading. This applies to everything in life. |