Thank you so much for this thoughtful comment. I want to start by sincerely apologizing if the analogy came off as dismissive or disrespectful. I didn't mean to diminish from excel at all, in fact, you've highlighted exactly why Excel is so powerful and why my analogy works, just not in the way I originally framed it. Let me clarify what I was trying to get at: Excel's success comes from empowering domain experts like Karen to solve real problems without needing a computer science degree. That's genuinely amazing and valuable. The "problem" isn't Excel itself or Karen's contribution, it's when the tool becomes the permanent solution rather than a stepping stone. My point about visual workflow tools was similar: they're incredibly powerful for rapid prototyping and getting things done quickly. But when professional developers (whose core skill is writing maintainable, scalable code) use them as their primary solution, we might be missing opportunities for more robust, long-term approaches. You're spot on about the value vs. cost center perspective. In Karen's case, the smart move is absolutely to work WITH her domain expertise while adding technical structure. Similarly, visual workflow tools can be fantastic for proof-of-concept or when you need something working yesterday. I think my tone came across as dismissive when I meant to be more reflective about when we choose the right tool for the job. Thanks for pushing back on this, it's made me think more carefully about how I frame these discussions. Both Excel and visual workflow tools have earned their success for good reasons.

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haswell 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Genuinely very curious: are you finding that meaningful numbers of experienced developers are turning to these visual workflow tools instead of writing code for substantial use cases?

I was a bit confused by the post because it seems to be written about a persona that I haven't personally come across: professional developers who choose visual workflow tools as a primary solution over building with code the "right way".

I'm still a bit confused because you make broad statements about these tools and their users while actually you seem to be focused on this specific subset of users. e.g. when you talk about why these tools are successful, was your intent to limit the scope of your comments about the success of this category to just professional developers?

In a separate comment, I criticized the post before I fully realized you're specifically talking about developers, and not the typical audience for these products. I'm trying to understand if that's the lens through which the entire post should be interpreted. If so, making that more clear would strengthen the post I think.

I'm still a bit skeptical about the existence of said persona, but happy to be shown I'm wrong.

	▲	dalibenothmen 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		That's a really fair question, and you're right that I could have been clearer about the persona I'm addressing. I'm actually part of that audience myself! As a developer and automation enthusiast, I fell in love with tools like Zapier and n8n, they're genuinely great for getting things done quickly. I still use them today for certain use cases. But here's where I've noticed the pattern: I've seen experienced developers (myself included) increasingly reaching for these visual tools even for complex workflows where code would be more appropriate. The tipping point for me was when I found myself building workflows that required custom scripts within the visual tools, dealing with 3-5 second execution times, and accepting limitations that I could easily solve with a few lines of code. You're absolutely right that the typical audience for these products isn't professional developers and it's business users, which is exactly why these tools are so successful and valuable. My frustration (and the motivation for this post) comes from seeing developers including myself choose the visual approach when we have better alternatives. This experience actually led me to build a code-first workflow automation engine with Bun and Rust that can handle computational-heavy workflows in milliseconds rather than seconds, at a fraction of the cost. I can even run it in a 1vcpu, 1GB ram VPS and still get a great performance. I think you've highlighted exactly why the post felt off, I was conflating the general success of these tools (which is well-deserved for their target audience) with a specific developer behavior that perhaps isn't as widespread as my bubble made it seem. Thanks for pushing me to clarify that distinction.

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jdauriemma 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I think I might have phrased my criticism too sharply, sorry about that. I wouldn’t have commented if I didn’t think you were making a worthy point though! There was an article about malleable software recently that used avocado slicers vs. kitchen knives as an analogy; the more I think about your piece, the more it resembles that concept.

https://www.inkandswitch.com/essay/malleable-software/

	▲	dalibenothmen 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		No need to apologize at all. I really appreciate you taking the time to engage thoughtfully! Your feedback helped me clarify my own thinking, which is exactly the kind of conversation I love. And that avocado slicer vs. kitchen knife analogy is perfect, it captures the nuance so well. Some tools are brilliantly specialized, while others thrive on flexibility. Maybe the real takeaway is that knowing when to reach for each is the mark of a savvy developer. Thanks again for the great discussion, this is why I love sharing on Hackernews, nowhere else has such a density of curious, sharp-minded people who push ideas further.