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shermantanktop 6 days ago

It surprises me that the monied elite seem to have so little awareness of what happens when they keep winning.

rwmj 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

They're getting NZ citizenship & building bunkers, so I guess they do know, but believe they can ride it out.

LightBug1 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They've refined the art of turning the majority against themselves to an almost exquisite level.

newswasboring 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Please give me an example of what happens.

Edit: before someone throws very strong platitudes at me again, I would like to see real-world examples. Because at least in my lifetime there have been zero consequences for people in power.

Edit 2: I've been banned from replying to this thread (lol, talk about power of the state). I guess I didn't define my acceptance criteria properly. But I thought it would be clear that the goal should be uplifting everyone not just shift the money around to someone else. That is what most of the revolutions mentioned in the replies are.

kergonath 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Please give me an example of what happens.

It’s easy to forget after 80 years of stable western democracies, but brutal equilibrium shifts do happen. There was a revolution every ~20 years in Europe between 1789 and 1917. And even during the 20th century, the history of much of the world is full of coups, revolts, and uprisings. See all the revolutions in ex-soviet republics, the Arab spring, etc.

So you can pick and choose between the American independence, the French Revolution, the revolutions of 1848, the Commune, and the soviets, to give you just a couple of examples for which you can find some documentation easily.

computerdork 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

And (even though I don't support him in any way), would say the election of Trump is in part due to the constant wins of the white collar work force. Most of the examples you gave of revolutions led to greater democracy and greater socialism, which benefits the blue collar, but ironically, in this case, the blue collar elected a autocratic conservative.

Again, am not a Trump supporter in anyway, but agree that when the wealthy keep getting richer while the blue-collar worker continues to struggle, this leads to discontentment and pushback.

rapind 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

> The shame is that this underclass does not really see how he is harming them and how his politics benefit their old enemies, the economic elite that’s turning into oligarchs.

I'd bet you that at least some are aware and just don't care. You crap on people long enough and they'll want to burn it all down out of spite. I suspect the eventual endgame here might be class warfare. Keep an eye out for more of these oligarch bunkers that are popping up.

computerdork 6 days ago | parent [-]

Feel like we already have some level of class warfare (meaning more than lets say ten years ago).

kergonath 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> And (even though I don't support him in any way), would say the election of Trump is in part due to the constant wins of the white collar work force.

Definitely. He tapped the anger and resentment of an underclass. The shame is that this underclass does not really see how he is harming them and how his politics benefit their old ennemies, the economic elite that’s turning into oligarchs.

> Most of the examples you gave of revolutions led to greater democracy and greater socialism, which benefits the blue collar, but ironically, in this case, the blue collar elected a autocratic conservative.

True. But examples of this also abound pre- or during WWII, from all the fascist regimes in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany, and copycats such as Vichy.

Upheaval and chaos can lead to either progress or ruin.

computerdork 6 days ago | parent [-]

Agreed, overall, they're only hurting themselves economically

geraldwhen 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Modern police and military gear is so advanced that revolution is unrealistic.

kergonath 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It does not help when part of the military sides with the revolution. Which happened to some extent in just about all of them. It’s never just normal people against the army. Soldiers also have families suffering just like the others. They also see what happens to them when they leave the military and become part of the underclass again. There is a spectrum between not following orders efficiently to just ignoring orders and then open mutiny.

ElFitz 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe. But a modern revolution also doesn’t need physical violence.

People in power only have power in so far as others believe and enforce it. The emperor has no clothes.

ben_w 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The gear generally requires an industrial base to keep it functioning. Given what was in SmarterEverDay's recent video about a barbecue cleaner, where so much of it ended up being imported despite their efforts (including chain mail!), I think in the event of another actual civil war, the USA would struggle to self-maintain any weapons more advanced than what you had in what is now "the" Civil War, and would be dependent on the whims of whichever foreign power wanted to support whichever sub-group.

johnnyanmac 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If they want to try their hand and unleash the first American genocide in history, that may be the cost for people to wake up. too many cameras and live uploading about to bury hundreds, maybe thousands of citizens being shot down in cold blood.

throwawayoldie 6 days ago | parent [-]

"First American genocide?" Maybe ask a Native American about that...if you can find one.

shermantanktop 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When it goes on just a little too long, it can result in the French Revolution and 1917 and the election of populist candidates with unexpected consequences.

So sure, not a given, but it’s a risk that goes up as conditions get worse.

newswasboring 6 days ago | parent [-]

French revolution I can still see as consequences but Bolsheviks just took land and gave it to the new nobelity (the state).

kergonath 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

The goalposts somewhat shifted, here. The original point was

> It surprises me that the monied elite seem to have so little awareness of what happens when they keep winning.

What happened is that the Russian elite ended up dead or penniless in exile. What happened after that is not really relevant to the lot of the blind elite of the ancien régime.

achierius 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> just took land and gave it to the new nobelity (the state).

This is unsubstantiated by historical evidence. No new class of "hereditary bureaucrats" emerged to replace the nobility; there was remarkably high movement between workers and officials, and even up to the very end of the Soviet Union, high officials were former day workers who had worked their way up the ranks.

dragontamer 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The period after the initial French Revolutions includes a period with an Emperor Napoleon and also a period where King Charles is restored to power.

It's like a century of struggle before that whole situation resolved.

throwawayoldie 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some very close haircuts.

newswasboring 6 days ago | parent [-]

When was the last instance of this in the last 100 years?

mosburger 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Nicolae Ceaușescu comes to mind?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C8%99escu#Death

EDIT: One could argue whether the United Healthcare CEO assassination meets the criteria, too.

ModernMech 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They're the ones trying to bring back feudalism. If they want feudalism, things are going to get... well feudal. The lesson I've learned in the past decade is that people have not changed, at all. People will act as medieval as their circumstances allow.

throwawayoldie 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia#Derg_era_(1974%E2%80%... comes to mind.

So, even if you weren't factually incorrect as well as smug, what's your actual point?

ben_w 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> I would like to see real-world examples. Because at least in my lifetime there have been zero consequences for people in power.

Liberia (1980 coup & 1989–2003 wars): Americo-Liberian elite overthrown by indigenous-led coups; cyclical elite purges, executions, and exiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Liberian_coup_d%27état

Argentine Military Junta (1983): generals faced prosecution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_the_Juntas

Philippines – Marcos Family (1986): Ousted by "People Power"; Ferdinand Marcos fled, family assets frozen, political exile: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/06/17/Judge-orders-Marcos-...

Romania – Ceaușescu Regime (1989): Ceaușescu and wife executed after rapid regime collapse; party elite purged: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_and_execution_of_Nicolae...

Rwanda (1994): Hutu elite responsible for genocide overthrown by Tutsi-led RPF, the attempt to seek justice overwhelmed their legal system so hard that it was itself criticised by Amnesty International: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide#Aftermath; internationally, there were also trials and convictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Tribuna...

Iraq (2003)/Libya (2011): External forces happened, Saddam Hussein got hanged, Muammar Gaddafi's death was the kind of thing people make laws to stop soldiers from doing.

And this year, that health insurance CEO who got assassinated, didn't they get their own legal strategy carved onto the bullets or something like that?

mingus88 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m not that surprised.

To reach the level of billionaire, it’s pretty much a requirement that you abandon all empathy and ethics.

What’s surprising is that nobody in their circle has educated them on the concept of a win-win. These people could be folk heros, universally loved and respected in ways buying a social media platform and banning all the haters will never accomplish.

QuercusMax 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's what's so incredibly stupid about the tariffs, immigration crackdowns, etc. Life is not a zero-sum game, and treating it like it is just makes it worse for everyone - unless you're the sort of person who really gets off on having other suffer worse than you.

Terr_ 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's less that they "get off on" suffering (though I'm sure some do) and more that they believe some conclusions:

1. The universe simply does not permit an arrangement of humans that isn't a hierarchy of exploitation and suffering.

2. There is a "natural" hierarchy which is also a just one, where good people deserve to exploit and bad people deserve to suffer, and of course I'm not one of the bad people. ("Just-world fallacy.")

3. Anyone who says don't need to build a Torment Nexus for anyone is a sneaky liar trying to trick their way upwards into a layer in the hierarchy they don't "deserve."

So it's not as simple as sadism or greed, they'll tolerate some being stepped-on as long as they've been convinced that the "right people" doing the stepping and the bad people are getting stepped on more.

A relevant free ebook from 2006: https://theauthoritarians.org

rightbyte 6 days ago | parent [-]

Sure but there is some sort of grayscale.

6 days ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
munificent 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A group of people who all agree that life is not a zero-sum game and cooperate effectively based on that premise will be very efficient, productive, and outcompete other groups.

They are also a honeypot begging to be exploited by bad actors for whom life is a zero-sum game. Once a critical mass of those asshats show up, all of the trust that led to the greater efficiency and productivity breaks down.

Greater trust between good actors is efficient but opens the door to free riders. Lower trust is inefficient but handles bad actors. I think basically all of human history is a meandering line around this unstable equilibrium of trust.

QuercusMax 6 days ago | parent [-]

Basically: assholes ruin things for everyone.

throwawayoldie 6 days ago | parent [-]

I think you just wrote the epitaph for the human race.

nehal3m 6 days ago | parent [-]

Maybe we should have written that on the Voyager Golden Record, although anyone capable of picking it up and deciphering it would have probably already avoided the scenario that doomed us.

throwawayoldie 6 days ago | parent [-]

"Third planet of this Class G star dominated by psychotic tool-using apes. Stay away."

AyyWS 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What society or culture survived by taking the high road? I'm reminded of Princess Leia's quote: No! Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons.

ben_w 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

The high (moral) road doesn't preclude self-defence, it precludes sadism and zero-sum thinking.

mejutoco 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Norway s sovereign fund seems like one instance.

rightbyte 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well weapons wouldn't have helped them either.

throwawayoldie 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Switzerland.

alistairSH 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Life isn't a sci-fi movie.

bluecalm 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What about a guy who made a popular Java game in his spare time and sold it to Microsoft for 2 billion? What in that process required forgoing empathy and ethics?

That's just one example. There are plenty of rich people who got there fairly and created a lot of value along the way.

Supernaut 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

I take it you're referring to the same guy who, after taking his money, wrote that feminism is a "social disease" and that privilege is a "made up metric"? That guy?

bluecalm 5 days ago | parent [-]

Yes. Things you mentioned are unrelated to how he made his money.

ryoshoe 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The "pretty much" disclaimer in their comment covers this case. But it doesn't dispute their idea that most billionaires reached that level of wealth by exploiting others

bluecalm 5 days ago | parent [-]

It depends how you define "exploit". How is Jensen Huang "exploiting" others? He started a GPU company, hires a lot of people, pays some of them very well, pays others not that well. I don't think you can say he is "exploiting" them though. He made lives of hundreds of thousands of people much better. If anything I think he should be celebrated and I am very happy he is a billionaire.

How is Roger Federer exploiting others? He played a competitive game, won a lot of tournaments, accepted a lot of sponsorship money. He is now a billionaire. Did he need to give up ethics and morals to get there? What kind of blame is that really?

RajT88 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Unless you are a founder of a unicorn startup. I used to hang out with one of the GitHub founders before it was a thing - he was engineering director when MSFT bought them out and now is a billionaire (single digit billions but still):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._J._Hyett

Probably more the exception than the rule.

panarky 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Stein#Stein's_Law

Nobody knows when.

But it's useful to think about how.

kergonath 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What is even more infuriating is that they can keep winning. They just have to stop being arseholes about it and pay lip service to wealth redistribution and social progress. It’s their winner-takes-all fuck-you-got-mine mentality that is pouring fuel on the fire

rapind 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's probably why "old money" doesn't like "new money". New money is crass, loud, and obnoxious. Old money knows that it's best to keep to the shadows, at least until one of their idiot kids ruins it.

I think the inability for people to control themselves, while probably our greatest weakness, is also what often saves us. The greed goes too far and then there's a massive backlash (revolution).

Technology is trying to neuter any potential backlash though. I mean who can be bothered with a revolution while there's youtubes to watch and AIs doing everything for you! I'm still optimistic we'll smarten up eventually.

throaway5454 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

"old money" tended to come with the assumption that you'd operate with a bit of noblesse oblige.

assword 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> That's probably why "old money" doesn't like "new money". New money is crass, loud, and obnoxious. Old money knows that it's best to keep to the shadows, at least until one of their idiot kids ruins it.

I suspect that’s why I’ve seen more serious monarchists than I ever have before.

immibis 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Evidence says they can keep winning without being nice. I trust evidence.